Facebook Follies of Friends and Families

[Tonitrus]

Trying to sell it as an authentic Native American totem pole would be iffy, but it seems fine otherwise. The diffusion of artistic styles is entirely benign.

I wouldn't even say iffy...that'd be outright fraud.

The idea more was for "outsiders" using the style originated by a certain culture...even if the intent was one of having respected/admired it, and putting one's own, individual take on it (even if that individual is a privileged white dude). 

[Zoupa]

That's more celebration of a culture than what is (I think) commonly meant under cultural appropriation, which is something more or less denigrating or disrespectful.

My 0.02$

Yes. But you can just call something denigrating or disrespectful racist. No need for a new concept.

Tru dat.

[Grinning_Colossus]

Trying to sell it as an authentic Native American totem pole would be iffy, but it seems fine otherwise. The diffusion of artistic styles is entirely benign.

I wouldn't even say iffy...that'd be outright fraud.

The idea more was for "outsiders" using the style originated by a certain culture...even if the intent was one of having respected/admired it, and putting one's own, individual take on it (even if that individual is a privileged white dude). 

It's a process that has been happening since the dawn of humanity and has allowed good (or aesthetically pleasing, insofar as there's a difference) ideas to diffuse throughout the world. The distinction between 'outsider' and 'insider' also becomes really blurry really quickly.

[HVC]

Are totems religious or just artistic?

[Tonitrus]

Trying to sell it as an authentic Native American totem pole would be iffy, but it seems fine otherwise. The diffusion of artistic styles is entirely benign.

I wouldn't even say iffy...that'd be outright fraud.

The idea more was for "outsiders" using the style originated by a certain culture...even if the intent was one of having respected/admired it, and putting one's own, individual take on it (even if that individual is a privileged white dude). 

It's a process that has been happening since the dawn of humanity and has allowed good (or aesthetically pleasing, insofar as there's a difference) ideas to diffuse throughout the world. The distinction between 'outsider' and 'insider' also becomes really blurry really quickly.

In many cases, that is true.

However, I think the white/Native American example might perhaps be the best exception to that.  Native American tribes/culture, and their desire to protect it/keep it exclusive, is very apparent (and perhaps very understandable).

[Tonitrus]

Are totems religious or just artistic?

Depends on the artist's intent.

They can be religious (well, maybe spiritual is the better word), cultural, tribal, or even just to tell a story/history/make a political point.

Often the carvings will depict the characters that have spiritual importance, usually associated with the tribe (e.g. Raven, Wolf, Bear, Thunderbird).  But some also just tell a story/history, and some make a (usually political) jab at the white man. 

[Grinning_Colossus]

Trying to sell it as an authentic Native American totem pole would be iffy, but it seems fine otherwise. The diffusion of artistic styles is entirely benign.

I wouldn't even say iffy...that'd be outright fraud.

The idea more was for "outsiders" using the style originated by a certain culture...even if the intent was one of having respected/admired it, and putting one's own, individual take on it (even if that individual is a privileged white dude). 

It's a process that has been happening since the dawn of humanity and has allowed good (or aesthetically pleasing, insofar as there's a difference) ideas to diffuse throughout the world. The distinction between 'outsider' and 'insider' also becomes really blurry really quickly.

In many cases, that is true.

However, I think the white/Native American example might perhaps be the best exception to that.  Native American tribes/culture, and their desire to protect it/keep it exclusive, is very apparent (and perhaps very understandable).

Suppose there's a privileged white person who grew up in the PNW and saw totem poles all over the place his whole life. They informed his sense of aesthetics and their presence makes him feel like he's back home. They are thus a part of his culture. Binding culture to blood is the project of reactionary cultural conservatism; I really don't understand why so much of the supposed left has embraced it.

Edit: Well, I suppose I do understand why--because Native Americans often take pride in their culture, and diffusion of that culture somehow injures that pride, and the left looks out for the interests of oppressed minorities--but it isn't logically consistent.

[Oexmelin]

As I said, I love the artistic style of the Pacific Northwest native tribes (Tlingit, Haida, etc...another reason I need to visit Vancouver more  ).  If I, as a super-white guy, decided I wanted to learn totem pole carving (something I've strongly considered looking into)..became rather adept at it, and started to carve my own, in the same style...am I now an evil cultural appropriator?  So long as I am not trying to pass it off as "authentic native art"?

Note that, the way you frame it, there is no selling, no benefiting of yourself other than the aesthetic pleasure, and that the learning part, presumably, comes from Indigenous people themselves.

As for the argument raised by Grinned Colossus about exchange being a timeless practice - it goes without saying. But so is pillage. That's why it's called "appropriation" and not exchange. People who raise the issue of cultural appropriation want it to be more on the side of mutually beneficial exchange and less on the side of pillage.

Again, I think people wanting to make this into a set of rules and regulations (both for, and against, cultural appropriation) are trying to empty it of political content, in order to transform it into rights and laws, guidelines that would be more comfortable by avoiding potentially awkward discussions - admittedly, this has been the shape of most recent fights against discrimination and exclusion.

[CountDeMoney]

Are totems religious or just artistic?

Depends on the artist's intent.

How about a dying and naked guy nailed on some wood?

[Oexmelin]

Suppose there's a privileged white person who grew up in the PNW and saw totem poles all over the place his whole life. They informed his sense of aesthetics and their presence makes him feel like he's back home. They are thus a part of his culture. Binding culture to blood is the project of reactionary cultural conservatism; I really don't understand why so much of the supposed left has embraced it.

What are we talking about, exactly? People being pissed at being told vicariously what they shouldn't do, or the underlying issues of power that inform cultural appropriation. Who are these hypothetical people who feel so disenfranchised because they are being told they should not reproduce totem poles? "I have no desire to, but want to be able to carve an Authentic PNW Totem Pole(tm) if I want to" ? I mean, we can conjure up all sorts of specific cases (and I would argue that "seeing something around" may not always equate "being part of").

[Tonitrus]

How about this example?

White/Euro couple visits Japan...goes to Kyoto and visits a shop that makes/sells traditional kimonos.  Couple buys a set (I forget what the male version is called...may also be "kimono"  )...not as a "costume", or something to wear on Halloween...but because they think it is cool.  Why do it?  Perhaps an extravagant souvenir...maybe for "personal roleplay"...or maybe even they think that they want to have their upcoming wedding done in traditional Japanese-style, because they like/appreciate Japanese culture.  Is it "appropriation", even if it may seem "silly", or some other kind of mostly innocent affectation?

[Jacob]

This is where it might get iffy, I think.

As I said, I love the artistic style of the Pacific Northwest native tribes (Tlingit, Haida, etc...another reason I need to visit Vancouver more  ).  If I, as a super-white guy, decided I wanted to learn totem pole carving (something I've strongly considered looking into)..became rather adept at it, and started to carve my own, in the same style...am I now an evil cultural appropriator?  So long as I am not trying to pass it off as "authentic native art"?

I'm not the authority on this, but since you're asking me: I figure if you learn totem pole carving from Native carvers who are willing to teach, and if you put the time in to get it right and understand the significance of the imagery you're employing so you can be confident you're employing it respectfully, you'll be fine. The key point here, though, is to engage with the people whose cultural heritage you're exploring - if you do that, I think it's likely to be seen as positive... especially if you continue to show respect for and towards your mentors and the culture they come from and are slow to claim expertise.

Conversely, if you take a couple of woodcarving classes at an art school and then start copying PNW tribal styles because they look neat, with no interaction with the people whose traditional style you're copying you may have people wonder what you're doing. If you somehow parlay that practice into a commercially successful enterprise and somehow become seen as an expert on the style in the public sphere based purely on copying the aesthetic, you can probably expect to hear people claim you're engaged in cultural appropriation.

Alternately, you can go with what Grinning Colossus suggests and say "cultural exchange is great, and I'm being respectful and that's good enough" and leave it at that.

[Jacob]

How about this example?

White/Euro couple visits Japan...goes to Kyoto and visits a shop that makes/sells traditional kimonos.  Couple buys a set (I forget what the male version is called...may also be "kimono"  )...not as a "costume", or something to wear on Halloween...but because they think it is cool.  Why do it?  Perhaps an extravagant souvenir...maybe for "personal roleplay"...or maybe even they think that they want to have their upcoming wedding done in traditional Japanese-style, because they like/appreciate Japanese culture.  Is it "appropriation", even if it may seem "silly", or some other kind of mostly innocent affectation?

I expect you bought a yukata rather than the full on classic kimono?

As I see it, there's no harm in buying souvenirs like that, nor any harm in using it for... "personal roleplay" (  ). I'd think having a full on Japanese wedding if neither party involved were Japanese would be somewhere between weird and tacky, but that's just a personal taste thing than anything else... at least if you put it on outside of Japan (though going to Japan and getting married there seems like a fun adventure, and it'd be hard to call that cultural appropriation IMO).

In general - and again this is just my personal point of view at this point - when it comes to interactions between Asian cultures and the West, issues of appropriation (and other cultural political issues) are only really topical internally in the West. Asian-Americans, f. ex., experience racism, erasure, harmful stereotyping etc within the American context - so it's worth being mindful of whether what you do plays into that in any significant way (assuming, of course, that you care to begin with rather than angrily rejecting caring about it as catering to overly sensitive and malign social justice warriors). On the other hand, there's plenty of scope to interact with various Asian cultures on a more level playing field - as more less equal cultural exchanges - and that's all good.

[derspiess]

Feel bad for them experiencing Erasure.  When my wife gets all nostalgic for her New Wave crap, I have to experience it as well

[CountDeMoney]

Lol
With an ABC chaser.