The Paris Attack Debate Thread

[LaCroix]

I think there is more in common between our positions than you think. I am simply concerned that LaCroix represents the majority on the left (of which I consider myself a part as well, so would like it to succeed by following reason, not dogma).

did you think people were saying "there's nothing wrong with islam as a religion, so let's ignore terrorist groups and let them be"?

[Razgovory]

Not sure who those other two are, but Ayaan Hirsi Ali seems to be intensely hated by most European leftists, at least from what I've seen.

Is that the Somali (Sudanese?) chick who says Islam sucks?

Yep. She is also a victim of female genital mutilation.

It would seem that an Atheist is not the best candidate for "moderate Muslim".  That's a bit like calling Yi, "a moderate Marxist".

[DGuller]

It would seem that an Atheist is not the best candidate for "moderate Muslim".

Seems like the best kind of a moderate Muslim.

[Razgovory]

Yes, Yes, you are eliminationist in mood towards them, I get it.

[Martinus]

I think there is more in common between our positions than you think. I am simply concerned that LaCroix represents the majority on the left (of which I consider myself a part as well, so would like it to succeed by following reason, not dogma).

did you think people were saying "there's nothing wrong with islam as a religion, so let's ignore terrorist groups and let them be"?

No, but as I said numerous times, even if there wasn't a single islamist terrorist, there would be a lot that is wrong with islam, as practiced by the majority of its followers around the globe.

[Razgovory]

You know, I find it interesting that Marty, Tamas, Solymr and DG all carry a little bit of old regime with them.  A little bit of the old hatreds, and a little bit of the old paranoia.  The Red Banner still lives so long as it lives in the hearts of the workers.

[DGuller]

You know, I find it interesting that Marty, Tamas, Solymr and DG all carry a little bit of old regime with them.  A little bit of the old hatreds, and a little bit of the old paranoia.  The Red Banner still lives so long as it lives in the hearts of the workers.

It has nothing to do with regime.  When you're raised without the notion of some invisible yet all-powerful being, and don't fall full monty for some religion during your formative young adulthood years, it's really just difficult to fathom how people can seriously believe in this stuff, especially believe in this stuff enough to kill others who believe differently.  I personally was never told there was no God, in school or anywhere else, I just wasn't told there was one.  Well, in the last couple of years at school I was repeatedly told by teachers that there was God, and even had a class that was based on the assumption that there was God, but luckily by then I was old enough to see that for what it was.

You're a pretty bright guy, I'm sure that like with many bright people who are also religious, you must be struggling with some cognitive dissonance.  Painting people who were brought up without the concept of God as brainwashed may suppress that conflict for a while, but it won't resolve it.  There is only one way to resolve it, and you know what it is.  Hopefully at some point you're focus your energies inward towards resolving that conflict instead of latching on onto every absurd pro-religion argument you come across.

[Martinus]

I think Raz is simply a type of a SJW, only his shtick is religion, especially Islam. He is just lashing out at the world and everyone around him because he is a sad depressed individual with no prospects of successful, happy life - but if he was just a school-shooter-wannabe weirdo brooding in some dark corner of his basement, and posting manifestos about "snobs", he wouldn't be able to hide his resentment under the guise of fighting for the today's cause celebre.

[The Brain]

There is only one way to resolve it, and you know what it is.

A sexy party?

[Crazy_Ivan80]

As for the "moderate Muslims", that covers people like Erdogan, and he's not that popular 'round these parts.

erdogan is not a moderate.

He's more moderate than the Saudis or Iran or Hezbollah or ISIS.

So was Mussolini compared to Hitler.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Rather than compare Islam to Communism I compare it to the Left.

So we have the muslim equivalents of Stalin, the Khmer Rouges or the Red Brigades/Baader-Meinhof types.

We also have underperforming muslim states, such as Morocco or Bangladesh, similar to poor countries of any religious/ideological slant.

Then there are the apologists; they are not going to bomb or shoot anyone, but they make excuses for groups like ISIS and believe that the MSM is not being fair to them. Back in Cold War days I knew many on the British left who would favour the Soviet Union over the USA, maybe a third of the left, it is incredible what people can will themselves to believe.

Finally we have the majority of muslims, pretty similar really to social democrats; they want the world to be a more Islamic place but would abhor terrorist methods.

OK, it is just an analogy, but it clears away the race and religious angles and helps me to see things with greater clarity. To blame your typical muslim for ISIS and Islamist terrorism would be like blaming Minsky for Stalin or associating syt or zanza with Nazism. On the other hand, the problems within the Islamic world greatly exceed the "tiny minority" that some talk about, there is a sickness reminiscent of the sickness in Europe back in the first half of the 20th century.

[Admiral Yi]

I don't blame your typical Muslim for ISIS.  I do, however, think it's fair to blame them for raising their children in a belief system that has a non-trivial chance of leading them to terrorism.

[Richard Hakluyt]

I'd add that, like the left, it seems to me that Islam is an ideology where there is always a tendency towards extremism. The "more muslim than thou" sort of thing; "you associate with people who drink alcohol", "your wife dresses immodestly"  etc etc therefore you are not a real muslim. The moderates are on the defensive and can easily be outflanked by extremists in the war of ideas.

[Martinus]

Finally we have the majority of muslims, pretty similar really to social democrats; they want the world to be a more Islamic place but would abhor terrorist methods.

Are you talking about Western Muslims, or Muslims globally?

[Richard Hakluyt]

Globally, though I would point out that 60%..........for example........ is a majority.

Senegal, Chad and Cameroon; for example, have all banned the burka in their fight against Islamist terror......all three are muslim majority states.