The Paris Attack Debate Thread

[Valmy]

If he is omnipotent, then all suffering is because he wants those sufferings to be. If a man chooses to cause pain and suffering when he doesn't have to, we call that evil. So why should not we call this evil as well?

If he is omnipotent and evil then surely he would strike you down for saying such things

But seriously yeah that is what I was trying to sum up.

[frunk]

Because there are natural phenomenon that can cause you harm, God must be evil?  These things like volcanoes and or hurricanes that are necessary elements to life existing on this world indicate cruelty? They are objectively bad?  I would say that volcanoes lack a moral character, and that people ascribe a moral character because they can suffer from them.  People must have the ability to suffer or else free will is fairly meaningless.  They must also have the ability to die for similar reasons.

Most of human endeavor is designed around avoiding the vicissitudes of nature.  Without modern invention and effort the world is a crueler and worst place and we would suffer more.  So do we have less free will now than if we lived in a primitive society?  Are our decisions constrained because we are less likely to suffer from an incurable disease?

[Razgovory]

Because there are natural phenomenon that can cause you harm, God must be evil?  These things like volcanoes and or hurricanes that are necessary elements to life existing on this world indicate cruelty? They are objectively bad?  I would say that volcanoes lack a moral character, and that people ascribe a moral character because they can suffer from them.  People must have the ability to suffer or else free will is fairly meaningless.  They must also have the ability to die for similar reasons.

I guess the thinking is that an omnipotent and good God would make things good for me all the time. Since they are not he is evil...or something.

If he is omnipotent, then all suffering is because he wants those sufferings to be. If a man chooses to cause pain and suffering when he doesn't have to, we call that evil. So why should not we call this evil as well?

Because we don't know its done with evil intent.  Still it seems your problem is not tooth decay or volcanoes, but that human beings have the capacity to suffer.  Would it be better if every human was replaced with a mindless insect that felt no pain?  It would seem that Suffering and Death are necessary elements for all higher species.

[Razgovory]

Because there are natural phenomenon that can cause you harm, God must be evil?  These things like volcanoes and or hurricanes that are necessary elements to life existing on this world indicate cruelty? They are objectively bad?  I would say that volcanoes lack a moral character, and that people ascribe a moral character because they can suffer from them.  People must have the ability to suffer or else free will is fairly meaningless.  They must also have the ability to die for similar reasons.

Most of human endeavor is designed around avoiding the vicissitudes of nature.  Without modern invention and effort the world is a crueler and worst place and we would suffer more.  So do we have less free will now than if we lived in a primitive society?  Are our decisions constrained because we are less likely to suffer from an incurable disease?

Well ignoring from the fact we are still very likely to die of a disease, I think you misunderstand my point.  The fact that we make the choice to mitigate the effects of the environment doesn't have any bearing on whether we have more or less free choice.  Imagine that a stream of lava is coming down the mountain right at you.  You can either sprint away or just stand there.  In our world standing there would cause you to painfully burn up, and sprinting away results in you getting not burned up.  In a world without suffering the choice is meaningless.  You aren't harmed whether your run or not.  It takes suffering to make this a meaningful choice.  In our world the fact that you are capable of running away (that is, mitigating the suffering), doesn't mean you lose free will.  To live in world without suffering means to live in a world that is static and unchanging where choices don't matter.

[Berkut]

This is an old argument.

Raz is arguing the position that God has to have children die of incurable diseases so we can appreciate it when some don't.

[Tamas]

It would seem that Suffering and Death are necessary elements for all higher species.

Which disproves the point that an omnipotent god would want it that way how exactly?

[Razgovory]

This is an old argument.

Raz is arguing the position that God has to have children die of incurable diseases so we can appreciate it when some don't.

Why are you even talking to me?  You don't bother to read what I wrote, and you can't stand it when people disagree with you.  Why don't you go back to ignoring me?

[Razgovory]

It would seem that Suffering and Death are necessary elements for all higher species.

Which disproves the point that an omnipotent god would want it that way how exactly?

It doesn't.

[The Minsky Moment]

If he is omnipotent, then all suffering is because he wants those sufferings to be. If a man chooses to cause pain and suffering when he doesn't have to, we call that evil. So why should not we call this evil as well?

If it turns out that there is a God, I don't think that he's evil. But the worst that you can say about him is that basically he's an underachiever.

[Razgovory]

Well, I managed to kill this thread and force everyone into another one.  This might be my finest work.

[Berkut]

Indeed Raz, your ability to destroy interesting conversation is your most prized attribute, I am sure.

[Razgovory]

I can destroy lots of things.