The Paris Attack Debate Thread

[Richard Hakluyt]

Correction : Cameroon is mainly Christian with maybe 20% Muslims. I thought that claim was dodgy, glad I checked, bloody Guardian journalists 

[Martinus]

Globally, though I would point out that 60%..........for example........ is a majority.

Senegal, Chad and Cameroon; for example, have all banned the burka in their fight against Islamist terror......all three are muslim majority states.

Again, I will repeat perhaps for the last time - this is not just about Islamic terror. It is about systemic oppression of women, about jail or death penalty for gays, flogging, jail or death penalty for "blasphemers" and apostates.

Homosexuality is punishable by jail in Senegal. 45% of women in Chad and 28% in Senegal undergo genital mutilation. Cameroon is not a Muslim country - 40% of people are Catholic and 30% Protestant...

I like you, RH, but comparing that to social democrats is not just intellectually dishonest, it's one of the most disgusting cases of moral equivalency I have ever seen.

[Martinus]

Correction : Cameroon is mainly Christian with maybe 20% Muslims. I thought that claim was dodgy, glad I checked, bloody Guardian journalists 

Ok, I am no longer mad at you then - it's just Guardian who needs to burn.

[Duque de Bragança]

Correction : Cameroon is mainly Christian with maybe 20% Muslims. I thought that claim was dodgy, glad I checked, bloody Guardian journalists 

Plus 5 % of animists, and the degree of syncretism of animism with Christianity or even Islam, is not even mentioned. Well done indeed, Guardian.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Similar to social democrats in that they do not intend to use or support terror tactics to promote their agenda.

I'd also add that oppression of women, FGM and anti-gay legislation are not exclusive to muslim countries.

The basis of our discussion on this thread is the attack on Paris and the jihadists who want to make similar attacks elsewhere. If we broaden it to include countries that have unsatisfactory treatment of women and gays then it is maybe 80% of the world, with even the "enlightened" 20% still needing progress on those fronts.

[Martinus]

Similar to social democrats in that they do not intend to use or support terror tactics to promote their agenda.

But the actual agenda probably matters, doesn't it? 

[Martinus]

The basis of our discussion on this thread is the attack on Paris and the jihadists who want to make similar attacks elsewhere. If we broaden it to include countries that have unsatisfactory treatment of women and gays then it is maybe 80% of the world, with even the "enlightened" 20% still needing progress on those fronts.

Ok, sorry I withdraw my withdrawal of opposition to your views. This is some of the shittiest moral equivalency I have ever seen. Not having full recognition of gay marriage is not the same as beheading gay people. I feel silly I even have to point this out...

[Martinus]

Incidentally, there are 10 countries in the world that penalise homosexuality with death penalty. Every single of them is Muslim.

[Warspite]

I don't blame your typical Muslim for ISIS.  I do, however, think it's fair to blame them for raising their children in a belief system that has a non-trivial chance of leading them to terrorism.

That's a pretty stupid chain of logic.

[Warspite]

I'd add that, like the left, it seems to me that Islam is an ideology where there is always a tendency towards extremism. The "more muslim than thou" sort of thing; "you associate with people who drink alcohol", "your wife dresses immodestly"  etc etc therefore you are not a real muslim. The moderates are on the defensive and can easily be outflanked by extremists in the war of ideas.

I'm not sure if it's a tendency towards extremism. It's more of an interaction with material and political grievances over many years. There have been plenty of secular extremists in the Middle East.

Where I believe Islam could be "construed" as a problem, if you have to call it that, in relation to the issue of radicalisation is that it provides a global community of believers to plug into. Now, the key here is that a large proportion of this community of believers live in polities that have been marred in the last seven decades by cultures of extreme political violence (perpetrated as much by, if not more so, by secular regimes) and significant social alienation and economic marginalisation.

SO whereas the angry young American man or Norwegian can shoot up a local college or gathering of Young Socialists, the angry young Muslim can plug into a worldwide network of seasoned radical militants. They can provide motivation, coordination, training, equipment - and a destination to go fight.

There has also been a huge collapse in the legitimacy of traditional Islamic institutions because of their association with the secular dictatorships of the past decades, which is one of the reasons the whole "counter-narrative" argument falls flat in practice. If you want to solve the ISIS problem, you can't do it with jurisprudence. You need to solve the deeper problem of extreme Sunni Arab marginalisation in Syria and Iraq.

[Razgovory]

I think Raz is simply a type of a SJW, only his shtick is religion, especially Islam. He is just lashing out at the world and everyone around him because he is a sad depressed individual with no prospects of successful, happy life - but if he was just a school-shooter-wannabe weirdo brooding in some dark corner of his basement, and posting manifestos about "snobs", he wouldn't be able to hide his resentment under the guise of fighting for the today's cause celebre.

Did you work at theater at one time, because there is a lot of projection going on.

[Razgovory]

You know, I find it interesting that Marty, Tamas, Solymr and DG all carry a little bit of old regime with them.  A little bit of the old hatreds, and a little bit of the old paranoia.  The Red Banner still lives so long as it lives in the hearts of the workers.

It has nothing to do with regime.  When you're raised without the notion of some invisible yet all-powerful being, and don't fall full monty for some religion during your formative young adulthood years, it's really just difficult to fathom how people can seriously believe in this stuff, especially believe in this stuff enough to kill others who believe differently.  I personally was never told there was no God, in school or anywhere else, I just wasn't told there was one.  Well, in the last couple of years at school I was repeatedly told by teachers that there was God, and even had a class that was based on the assumption that there was God, but luckily by then I was old enough to see that for what it was.

You're a pretty bright guy, I'm sure that like with many bright people who are also religious, you must be struggling with some cognitive dissonance.  Painting people who were brought up without the concept of God as brainwashed may suppress that conflict for a while, but it won't resolve it.  There is only one way to resolve it, and you know what it is.  Hopefully at some point you're focus your energies inward towards resolving that conflict instead of latching on onto every absurd pro-religion argument you come across.

Why were you lucky to not be taught this?  Are you so deep in your position that you can't see any benefit of thinking otherwise?  It's funny because what say about me I've seen from your eastern European crowd time and time again.  Those clever American leaders, scientists and politicians who claim to have a religious spark must be secretly atheist, because what right thinking person wouldn't be?  Personally I don't see any much benefit in the materialist worldview.  It is nihilist and eventually anti-humanist.  Your life and everything you ever do is pointless.  There is nothing objectively positive, all things are subjective.  That we don't mutilate a baby girls genitals has nothing to do with whether it is right or wrong, it is just happenstance that we are born to a culture that does not.  We see it as wrong, if we were born in a culture that thought it was right for whatever reason then it would be right.  Right and wrong are simply the consensus view point.  Your life is worthless.  You are simply an ephemeral chemical reaction occupying a tiny speck of the universe.  There is no real difference between you and a gnat.  All our culture, science and accomplishments are the work of gnats trying  to impress other gnats.  You will die and be totally obliterated.  In 20 years old a few people will be able to even remember you.  In 100 no one will.  In a million human kind will likely be extinct so not even any genes you pass on will exist.  Hell, you may not even have a mind.  Or mental states.  They may be just as fictional as God.

[garbon]

Really, the one can't have a meaningful life, a morality system without religion?

[Razgovory]

Really, the one can't have a meaningful life, a morality system without religion?

Define "meaningful".

[mongers]

Really, the one can't have a meaningful life, a morality system without religion?

Define "meaningful".

You can choose to give your live meaning.