The Paris Attack Debate Thread

[Razgovory]

How long did it take your knee to get to it's present position?  I honestly don't get a lot of your guys position.  You don't want any actual action taken against Muslims you just want them to know their religion is bad?

No. I want to support moderate Muslims more vocally, and I want our governments to stop coddling up to conservative Muslim countries. There is also an element of reaction to idiot left which believes that vocally opposing female genital mutilation is "islamophobia" and "racism".

This is fair to some extent.  I don't know what else the West can do in regards to Saudi Arabia.  The alternative seems much worse.  Tamas posted an Image that showed the similarities to ISIS and the Saudi State, but it ignored the most salient points.  ISIS runs slave markets, aggressively attacks the people around it, and sends terrorists to attack countries out of its reach.  That makes the worse then the Saudis, and I fear that what ever the place of the House of Saud is going to be like ISIS.

As for the "moderate Muslims", that covers people like Erdogan, and he's not that popular 'round these parts.

[The Brain]

, and sends terrorists to attack countries out of its reach.

[Razgovory]

, and sends terrorists to attack countries out of its reach.

Not a fan of my comma, huh?

[Crazy_Ivan80]

As for the "moderate Muslims", that covers people like Erdogan, and he's not that popular 'round these parts.

erdogan is not a moderate.

[Martinus]

How long did it take your knee to get to it's present position?  I honestly don't get a lot of your guys position.  You don't want any actual action taken against Muslims you just want them to know their religion is bad?

No. I want to support moderate Muslims more vocally, and I want our governments to stop coddling up to conservative Muslim countries. There is also an element of reaction to idiot left which believes that vocally opposing female genital mutilation is "islamophobia" and "racism".

This is fair to some extent.  I don't know what else the West can do in regards to Saudi Arabia.  The alternative seems much worse.  Tamas posted an Image that showed the similarities to ISIS and the Saudi State, but it ignored the most salient points.  ISIS runs slave markets, aggressively attacks the people around it, and sends terrorists to attack countries out of its reach.  That makes the worse then the Saudis, and I fear that what ever the place of the House of Saud is going to be like ISIS.

As for the "moderate Muslims", that covers people like Erdogan, and he's not that popular 'round these parts.

Not really, no. I'd rather not take a Putin-wannabe for a "moderate Muslim".

I'd rather speak of Raif Badawi, Ayaan Hirsi Ali or Asra Nomani. These are the kind of people we should be supporting.

[Martinus]

And yes, it's a long haul. Like supporting the likes of Havel and Walesa was for half a century after WWII. And, interestingly enough, despite all their moral failings, these were Reagan, Thatcher and Kohl who won the moral highground in that fight, too - and not Sartre and others who coddled up to Stalin.

Damn, perhaps I am becoming a conservative in my dotage. 

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Then we understand the causes of the violence better, and we seek solutions where they might actually exist, rather than where we prefer they exist.

that's what i mean. how do you seek a solution that avoids attacking all of islam if you think islam causes a fundamental problem?

I understand what you mean, but submit that the solution to be sought dos not involve either ignoring the Islamic elements of the violence, nor does it involve attacking all of Islam.  You insist that these are our only choices, and I reject your insistence.

What's more, the fact that the Western left presents the alternative in this, binary way, will be what leads to it ultimately losing the issue to the right - because more and more people will become convinced that if this is the only alternative, and the left's refusal to take any action is moronic, the right becomes the only sensible choice.

indeed: the left has totally mishandled this situation over the past 20 to 25 years (mileage may vary depending on country): By tarring everyone who wasn't in full agreement with their multi-culti po-co idea of the world as racist, nationalist, fascist or any combination of these they abandoned the issue -and ironically many of their core voters- to the right. Now the chickens are coming home to roost.

The man who wrote the opinion-piece (though it's more his personal experiences) is a case in point:
http://www.knack.be/nieuws/belgie/wie-sluipende-radicalisering-in-brussel-aankaartte-was-een-racistische-islamofoob/article-opinion-626813.html
The author is Luckas Vander Taelen, a flemish-brussels politician for Groen (the greens, very leftist) who was pilloried because a few years ago he said that there was increasing islamisation in Brussels.

"Who creeping radicalization in Brussels broached was a racist Islamophobic '

"Who formulated in recent years concerns about the creeping radicalization in Brussels, was immediately dismissed as racist Islamophobic.  Now it appears that devised the attacks in Paris in Molenbeek.  It would Philippe Moureaux adorn if he admitted that he had underestimated the phenomenon, "writes Luckas Vander Taelen

Five years ago I started writing about what I saw happening around me, in my city of Brussels.  I was talking about Vorst and the multicultural neighborhood where to live.  What I saw there grow a generation of youth that I "rebels without a cause" and called those "Belge" used as a swearword.  And I was in a column wondering why so little dared "to stand up for the laws and values ​​of the country in which we live."  I told the story of a French-Moroccan artist who placed a pair of women's shoes with high heels on a prayer mat, to raise the role of women in Islam.  The gallery which exhibited his work, received so many threats that the artwork was quickly removed.



Parts  

Who creeping radicalization in Brussels broached was a racist Islamophobic


I was at that time the Flemish Parliament for Green and my articles were me within the party not appreciated.  Ecolo (the francophone greens, even more leftwing -CI80) was even less amused and looked at me from then on as a racist.  The then mayor of Molenbeek, Philippe Moureaux (PS) my ideology was equally abject and he pushed me without any nuance in the right corner.

Jew-hatred

That happened to just about everyone who has even one dared to speak out critical word about the multicultural society.  However saw every journalist who withdrew without prejudice to the research, there was still something wrong.  As RTBF journalist Frédéric Deborsu.  He showed how the radical Islamic literature was released for sale in Molenbeek.  But Mayor Philippe Moureaux Deborsu found an Islamophobic and said there was nothing going on in his church.  "The Islamophobia is today, what anti-Semitism in the years was thirty", it sounded with the mayor.

That outrageous comparison is now made so many times, that it is for many young people in Brussels for true respect.  The success of the anti-Semitic French comedian Dieudonné which several illegal appearances gave in Brussels to packed houses, is therefore not surprising.  Just as the anti-Semitic slogans during demonstrations against Israel or the giant banner in my neighborhood "Gaza = Auschwitz".  Three years later, four people died in an attack on the Brussels Jewish Museum.

Syriëstrijders recruit

But not only in Molenbeek, in other Brussels municipalities, raging and raging Islamism.  Sam Gheyskens, a student at the RITS, made ​​last year a revealing portrait of Younes Deleforterie. The appointment had to give this better displayed instead of the dangerous scatterbrain fifteen minutes of talk time.  In the film we see how Deleforterie in Schaerbeek bookstore shows the book that put him on the path of radicalism.  Furthermore the meantime he met there arrested man calling himself "le soumis" (the subjected) called and accused of being recruited near the North Station Syriëstrijders have.

And Anderlecht is not beyond reproach.  There was recently the town hall with the firebombing.  Frédéric Deborsu showed in his report how Anderlecht in a mosque in a particular way mysogene on women was being discussed.  I had already heard that in my own community of Forest radical Imman smoothly in an Islamic cultural center could posit that AIDS is a punishment for our immoral behavior and that women stoning God's will.  When the French Islam-critic Caroline Fourest came to give a lecture at the ULB was prevented by aggressive chants.

Underestimate

But all the signs on the wall did not lead to new insights and political will to tackle the growing religious radicalism.  On the contrary, Bert Anciaux (SP.A) explained in the Senate even a proposal means that Islamophobia would make punishable.  A few weeks ago Anciaux reproached me that my criticism of the fundamentalist extreme right strengthened.  There Anciaux had a hard time with it, not with what his party Ahidar ready played was: who was on his Facebook page a picture of a proud with machine gun posing Syriëstrijder placed with the accompanying text: "Someone has to do it, unfortunately ... our prayers are with you! "


Who formulated in recent years concerns about the creeping radicalization in Brussels, has been haughty by right-thinking immediately denounced as racist Islamophobic.  Now it appears that devised the attacks in Paris in Molenbeek.  It would Philippe Moureaux adorn if he admitted that he underestimated the phenomenon.  Otherwise, I hope that he is silent for the rest of his life.

More or less the same happened to Peter Calluy, a social worker, who notified the politians of the town where he worked (Boom) that radicalisation was going on. He was hounded out of his work and made suspect by tarring him as racist. A few years later the people he warned about (Fouad Belcacem et al) formed Sharia4Belgium. Some if which are now in Syria -ideally dead-, others were recruiting and are now in prison, or not...

[Razgovory]

Not really, no. I'd rather not take a Putin-wannabe for a "moderate Muslim".

I'd rather speak of Raif Badawi, Ayaan Hirsi Ali or Asra Nomani. These are the kind of people we should be supporting.

Wanting to be Putin does not have relation on him being a moderate Muslim, and picking a few activists as your example of "moderate Muslims" is unhelpful.  We have to deal with the leaders that exist now.  Is Erdogan an Islamist?  Well, no.  His political enemies say that about him, but doesn't make that so.  It's a bit like all those people who claim Obama is a communist.  Let's look at the other middle Eastern countries.  Who else do we call "Moderate"?  Saudi Arabia?  Iran?  Iraq?  Syria?  The newest state, ISIS?  Our list grows thin.  Pretty much every Muslim majority country you are going to find something you don't like.  Sometimes you gotta take what you can get.

[Eddie Teach]

As for the "moderate Muslims", that covers people like Erdogan, and he's not that popular 'round these parts.

erdogan is not a moderate.

He's more moderate than the Saudis or Iran or Hezbollah or ISIS.

[Martinus]

Following last week's deadly Paris attacks and numerous other violent incidents perpetrated by the terror group ISIS, many governments and populations worldwide are wondering how we can eliminate this threat. Here are some strategies to defeat the Islamic State:

Publish a long-form article detailing the challenges involved in fighting an enemy that does not value human life
Refuse to appear terrorized by this constant, worldwide threat of violence and death
Organize a coup, leaving the U.S. free to prop up the ISIS leader of their choice
Spend $1.7 trillion
Attempt to compromise with our adversary by meeting them halfway on their demand to spill the blood of all apostates
Stop flow of new ISIS recruits from West by encouraging disaffected youth to join violent extremist groups back home
Maybe draw them out to sea?
Simply coordinate with our allies on a comprehensive strategy that targets ISIS militants while limiting civilian casualties, while simultaneously addressing the longstanding socioeconomic struggles that drive young Arab men to embrace radicalism, reaching out to liberal and moderate factions within Syria, and addressing our own prejudices that galvanize support for terror around the Islamic world
Train and arm somebody else's kids to go over there and shoot them

http://www.theonion.com/graphic/strategies-defeat-isis-51877

[Razgovory]

And yes, it's a long haul. Like supporting the likes of Havel and Walesa was for half a century after WWII. And, interestingly enough, despite all their moral failings, these were Reagan, Thatcher and Kohl who won the moral highground in that fight, too - and not Sartre and others who coddled up to Stalin.

Damn, perhaps I am becoming a conservative in my dotage. 

I had to look up your moderate Muslims.  One isn't.  Another lives in the US.  The third is a bit more promising as a Dissident living in Saudi Arabia.  Still, not a kiss to build a dream on.  If you have free elections in most Muslim countries the moderate candidates are going to look like ... Erdogan.  So really your choices are shaky dictators that can hold the people down for limited amount of time, such as in Egypt, actual Islamic fundamentalists who are either elected or seize power, or religious conservatives like Erdogan.

[Razgovory]

Oh, it seems as if the Russians are up to something.  http://www.vox.com/2015/11/20/9769878/russia-lebanon-airspace

Reports: Russia demands Lebanon shut down airspace for Russian military drills

   
• Russia is demanding that Lebanon suspend flights in and out of Beirut's international airport for three days, reports in both Lebanon's state media and the Daily Star newspaper say — effectively shutting down all commercial flights in and out of the country from Saturday to Monday.
• Russia will run a naval exercise in the Mediterranean that it claims will endanger commercial aircraft. The location of these exercises, Lebanon's official National News Agency says, "will bring air traffic to and from Beirut's airport to a complete halt."
• According to journalist Nour Samaha, Lebanon's transport minister has rejected Russia's request. Middle East Airlines, Lebanon's national carrier, says flights are going as normal (per BuzzFeed's Borzou Daragahi). It is unclear how Russia will respond if these reports are correct.

Russia is trying to force Lebanon to close its airspace on Lebanese Independence Day

Russia is reportedly telling Lebanon to shut down air travel for its only commercial airport while it runs what it says are military drills — a very unusual demand for one country to make of another, especially with only hours of notice.

There aren't a lot of details about the Russian military exercise, but it seems likely that it has something to do with Russia's bombing campaign in Syria. Whether Russia will continue with the exercise if Lebanon definitively denies the request to shut down its airspace remains to be seen.

If Russia eventually does strong-arm Lebanon into shutting down air travel for a few days, it probably won't endear many Lebanese to Moscow. Especially since the second day of the Russian request — November 22 — is Lebanese Independence Day. The irony isn't lost on anyone.

Walid Joumblatt, a well-known political figure in Lebanon, shared some thoughts about this development on Twitter:  Some crap on Twitter I'm not reposting.  Go look for yourselves you work shy gits.

[Ancient Demon]

I'd rather speak of Raif Badawi, Ayaan Hirsi Ali or Asra Nomani. These are the kind of people we should be supporting.

Not sure who those other two are, but Ayaan Hirsi Ali seems to be intensely hated by most European leftists, at least from what I've seen.

[Admiral Yi]

Not sure who those other two are, but Ayaan Hirsi Ali seems to be intensely hated by most European leftists, at least from what I've seen.

Is that the Somali (Sudanese?) chick who says Islam sucks?

[Duque de Bragança]

Not sure who those other two are, but Ayaan Hirsi Ali seems to be intensely hated by most European leftists, at least from what I've seen.

Is that the Somali (Sudanese?) chick who says Islam sucks?

Yep. She is also a victim of female genital mutilation.