The Paris Attack Debate Thread

[Barrister]

The problem is that even those Muslims who do not support terrorism are pretty creepy and medieval.

I dunno.  The muslims that I actually know are all pretty cool.   

Granted of course they're muslim-Canadians, but it still would seem to counter your point.

[Malthus]

Coming up: a baby who eats Jews...?!

There's a statue of this heroic feat in the Vigeland sculpture park. 

[Razgovory]

I think this is a strawman - the issue is not what non-Muslims believe, the issue is what the "certifiable lunatics" believe.

And they believe that they are good and true Muslims.

As opposed to other, emotionally torn, extremists?

As opposed to say any system of ideas.  Should Yi have to apologize to the world every time someone adhering to Austrian economics runs a scam, or kills people through negligence?  If someone believed the same thing as Yi (or at least thought they did), and did a bad thing because of those beliefs does this reflect poorly on Yi?

[Jacob]

The problem is that even those Muslims who do not support terrorism are pretty creepy and medieval.

I dunno.  The muslims that I actually know are all pretty cool.   

Granted of course they're muslim-Canadians, but it still would seem to counter your point.

Yeah, I've known a variety of muslims, and a variety of Arabs some of whom were pretty secular, and they have all been pretty cool.

[Admiral Yi]

As opposed to say any system of ideas.  Should Yi have to apologize to the world every time someone adhering to Austrian economics runs a scam, or kills people through negligence?  If someone believed the same thing as Yi (or at least thought they did), and did a bad thing because of those beliefs does this reflect poorly on Yi?

I would say yes.  If I espouse a belief system that breeds a certain level of violence, then I think that belief system is problematic.

I think that is the dilemna confronting good Muslims, who are trying to raise their children to be good Muslims as well.

[crazy canuck]

The starting line up of my son's basketball team includes - a Sikh, a Hindu and a Muslim.  According to Viper the world should shake with fear!  But not so much other teams because most will have a higher percentage of Sikhs on their teams.

[dps]

As opposed to say any system of ideas.  Should Yi have to apologize to the world every time someone adhering to Austrian economics runs a scam, or kills people through negligence?  If someone believed the same thing as Yi (or at least thought they did), and did a bad thing because of those beliefs does this reflect poorly on Yi?

I would say yes.  If I espouse a belief system that breeds a certain level of violence, then I think that belief system is problematic.

I think that is the dilemna confronting good Muslims, who are trying to raise their children to be good Muslims as well.

I have some problem agreeing with this position.  Almost any belief can motivate some people to violence.

For example, that John Brown used terrorist tactics doesn't reflect poorly on abolitionism, IMO.  (ACW hijack!)

[Eddie Teach]

The starting line up of my son's basketball team includes - a Sikh, a Hindu and a Muslim.  According to Viper the world should shake with fear!

Cause India is such a basketball powerhouse?

[crazy canuck]

As opposed to say any system of ideas.  Should Yi have to apologize to the world every time someone adhering to Austrian economics runs a scam, or kills people through negligence?  If someone believed the same thing as Yi (or at least thought they did), and did a bad thing because of those beliefs does this reflect poorly on Yi?

I would say yes.  If I espouse a belief system that breeds a certain level of violence, then I think that belief system is problematic.

I think that is the dilemna confronting good Muslims, who are trying to raise their children to be good Muslims as well.

I have some problem agreeing with this position.  Almost any belief can motivate some people to violence.

For example, that John Brown used terrorist tactics doesn't reflect poorly on abolitionism, IMO.  (ACW hijack!)

The only solution for Yi is to have no beliefs at all.  Which given many of his amoral views is probably pretty close to his reality.

[crazy canuck]

The starting line up of my son's basketball team includes - a Sikh, a Hindu and a Muslim.  According to Viper the world should shake with fear!

Cause India is such a basketball powerhouse?

Go up against a large Sikh player and he will wide the smirk off your face pretty fast.   

[OttoVonBismarck]

I don't know how valid it is to compare Canadian Muslim anecdotes to European ones. In both America and Canada the Muslim populations are pretty well integrated, although I do have to say Canada has a lot of stupid law relating to religion (faith-based tribunals, their imbecilic Human Rights Commissions calling in people for blasting radical Imams etc.) But in Europe they don't tend to have well integrated Muslims, and a lot of that is also probably because America and Canada get a "better class of Muslim." A lot of American Muslims didn't come here as refugees, for example, but as skilled workers or the family's of such. Then a lot of American Muslims also came from earlier refugee crises and are now in 2nd or 3rd generation status, and those individuals always tend to be better assimilated.

[dps]

As opposed to say any system of ideas.  Should Yi have to apologize to the world every time someone adhering to Austrian economics runs a scam, or kills people through negligence?  If someone believed the same thing as Yi (or at least thought they did), and did a bad thing because of those beliefs does this reflect poorly on Yi?

I would say yes.  If I espouse a belief system that breeds a certain level of violence, then I think that belief system is problematic.

I think that is the dilemna confronting good Muslims, who are trying to raise their children to be good Muslims as well.

I have some problem agreeing with this position.  Almost any belief can motivate some people to violence.

For example, that John Brown used terrorist tactics doesn't reflect poorly on abolitionism, IMO.  (ACW hijack!)

The only solution for Yi is to have no beliefs at all.  Which given many of his amoral views is probably pretty close to his reality.

Are you sure you're not confusing him with Mono?

[garbon]

The problem is that even those Muslims who do not support terrorism are pretty creepy and medieval.

I dunno.  The muslims that I actually know are all pretty cool.   

Granted of course they're muslim-Canadians, but it still would seem to counter your point.

Yeah, I've known a variety of muslims, and a variety of Arabs some of whom were pretty secular, and they have all been pretty cool.

Whenever I think about Marti's stance on muslims, I recall this fondly like it was yesterday.*

Grabon doesn't care about white people who are victims of police violence.

So clearly that is a false statement.

Not sure about that but you are clearly selective in your outrage. For example, your profile picture features an ISIS murderess. Even if ironic, this seems bad taste - more than if, say, Derspiess had Zimmermann's pic in his profile, for example.

*and yes, I just pulled a Raz. So sue me.

[Admiral Yi]

I have some problem agreeing with this position.  Almost any belief can motivate some people to violence.

For example, that John Brown used terrorist tactics doesn't reflect poorly on abolitionism, IMO.  (ACW hijack!)

I think there's a difference between a cause (such as abolitionism, independence, civil rights, etc) and a belief system such as a religion.  There will always be proponents of violence to achieve virtually any cause, but it doesn't stem organically from the cause itself.

[Malthus]

I don't know how valid it is to compare Canadian Muslim anecdotes to European ones. In both America and Canada the Muslim populations are pretty well integrated, although I do have to say Canada has a lot of stupid law relating to religion (faith-based tribunals, their imbecilic Human Rights Commissions calling in people for blasting radical Imams etc.) But in Europe they don't tend to have well integrated Muslims, and a lot of that is also probably because America and Canada get a "better class of Muslim." A lot of American Muslims didn't come here as refugees, for example, but as skilled workers or the family's of such. Then a lot of American Muslims also came from earlier refugee crises and are now in 2nd or 3rd generation status, and those individuals always tend to be better assimilated.

Most of the Muslims I know personally were refugees - particularly, from Iran. Mind you they were fleeing because of the Ayatollahs, and they were pretty 'upper class' well-educated urbanites. 

I have no idea what you are taking about 'faith-based tribunals'.  Care to explain?