The Paris Attack Debate Thread

[Malthus]

Correct.
The key being how the religions are understood and practiced.
All the more reason we should take seriously the vast majority of practicing Muslims who insist that the violent interpretations of jihadist passages is wrong and even heretical. 

It's a little bizarre for non-Muslims to be so vehement in saying that the Quranic interpretations of a minority faction of certifiable lunatics must be the true and correct ones in the face of millions of actual practicing Muslims who say the opposite.

I haven't heard millions of practicing Muslims say anything at all.

The Koran is not a series of parables or allegories; it's a list of commandments, of laws.  As such interpretation in the way we understand it doesn't have much place.  Allah told Mohammed not to drink booze.  You either obey Allah's will or you don't.

There is a long Islamic tradition of interpretation of the Koran ("Tafsir") based in part on an extra-Koranic corpus of sayings ("Hadiths") that vary and interpret how the Koran is to be understood.

It isn't a lot different from Judaism in that respect.

[Martinus]

Correct.
The key being how the religions are understood and practiced.
All the more reason we should take seriously the vast majority of practicing Muslims who insist that the violent interpretations of jihadist passages is wrong and even heretical. 

It's a little bizarre for non-Muslims to be so vehement in saying that the Quranic interpretations of a minority faction of certifiable lunatics must be the true and correct ones in the face of millions of actual practicing Muslims who say the opposite.

I haven't heard millions of practicing Muslims say anything at all.

The Koran is not a series of parables or allegories; it's a list of commandments, of laws.  As such interpretation in the way we understand it doesn't have much place.  Allah told Mohammed not to drink booze.  You either obey Allah's will or you don't.

There is a long Islamic tradition of interpretation of the Koran ("Tafsir") based in part on an extra-Koranic corpus of sayings ("Hadiths") that vary and interpret how the Koran is to be understood.

It isn't a lot different from Judaism in that respect.

That how do you explain the fact that Jews have much much better comedians?

[Malthus]

The problem is that even those Muslims who do not support terrorism are pretty creepy and medieval.

Heh my experience of east European Catholics (having married into a family of 'em) was a bit of a trip in that respect, as well. 

[Malthus]

Correct.
The key being how the religions are understood and practiced.
All the more reason we should take seriously the vast majority of practicing Muslims who insist that the violent interpretations of jihadist passages is wrong and even heretical. 

It's a little bizarre for non-Muslims to be so vehement in saying that the Quranic interpretations of a minority faction of certifiable lunatics must be the true and correct ones in the face of millions of actual practicing Muslims who say the opposite.

I haven't heard millions of practicing Muslims say anything at all.

The Koran is not a series of parables or allegories; it's a list of commandments, of laws.  As such interpretation in the way we understand it doesn't have much place.  Allah told Mohammed not to drink booze.  You either obey Allah's will or you don't.

There is a long Islamic tradition of interpretation of the Koran ("Tafsir") based in part on an extra-Koranic corpus of sayings ("Hadiths") that vary and interpret how the Koran is to be understood.

It isn't a lot different from Judaism in that respect.

That how do you explain the fact that Jews have much much better comedians?

Well, our starting religion is that much more wacky. I mean, God commanded no eating shellfish? WTF? 

[Martinus]

The problem is that even those Muslims who do not support terrorism are pretty creepy and medieval.

Heh my experience of east European Catholics (having married into a family of 'em) was a bit of a trip in that respect, as well. 

Yeah that's a problem. Catholic fundamentalists here are screaming their heads off about Muslim refugees but they are more similar to them than to French liberals.

[The Minsky Moment]

I haven't heard millions of practicing Muslims say anything at all.

What attempts have you made to learn about what actual Muslims believe and practice?

The Koran is not a series of parables or allegories; it's a list of commandments, of laws. 

Based on this I think the rhetorical question above can be answered.  The Qur'an is not a list of laws at all. 

[The Minsky Moment]

If I'm a little defensive here, it's because I happen to belong to a religion (Judaism) which probably takes the prize for the most violent-themed holy books.  There are large swaths of the OT that are openly genocidal, including part of Judges and Samuel and pretty much the whole book of Joshua.  There is one incident where Saul is commanded to kill every man, woman, and child of an enemy nation specifically including the babies.  He is chastised later for sparing the sheep.  (BTW these are holy scriptures for Christians as well . . .)

Given that background, one might say the Judaism is an inherently violent religion that must be suppressed.  The reality is that for the most part, the religion evolved in a way as to minimize and contextualized these troubling passages and for many centuries the religion has promoted instead interpretations emphasizing peace and love.  Of course every now and then there some crazed settler or a Baruch Goldstein commits some horrific atrocity and sure enough they can find scripture to cite for their lunacy.  One could say that these episodes are far less common among Jews than among Muslims.  Then again there are a hell of a lot more Muslims than Jews.

[Eddie Teach]

If I'm a little defensive here, it's because I happen to belong to a religion (Judaism) which probably takes the prize for the most violent-themed holy books.

Interesting, I always thought you were an atheist.

[Admiral Yi]

What attempts have you made to learn about what actual Muslims believe and practice?

I stopped well short of interviewing millions of practicing Muslims.

[Malthus]

The problem is that even those Muslims who do not support terrorism are pretty creepy and medieval.

Heh my experience of east European Catholics (having married into a family of 'em) was a bit of a trip in that respect, as well. 

Yeah that's a problem. Catholic fundamentalists here are screaming their heads off about Muslim refugees but they are more similar to them than to French liberals.

I must have written before about my very first meeting with my wife's parents. It was - a freakshow.  They are very nice people, though. 

[Valmy]

There is one incident where Saul is commanded to kill every man, woman, and child of an enemy nation specifically including the babies.  He is chastised later for sparing the sheep.  (BTW these are holy scriptures for Christians as well . . .)

Hey! He also let the King live. No wonder God abandoned him.

[Berkut]

It's a little bizarre for non-Muslims to be so vehement in saying that the Quranic interpretations of a minority faction of certifiable lunatics must be the true and correct ones in the face of millions of actual practicing Muslims who say the opposite.

I think this is a strawman - the issue is not what non-Muslims believe, the issue is what the "certifiable lunatics" believe.

And they believe that they are good and true Muslims.

And I am not sure I am buying this claim that they are some tiny minority - it seems like there are a lots and lots of Muslims who support this kind of violence, even if they are not engaging in it themselves. Indeed, it seems to me like there are lots of Muslims out there who are mostly constrained by their lack of power to impose their religious will on others, rather than being restrained by the lack of ideology stating that said will ought not be forced onto others.

But I have no problem conceding that there are lots and lots of Muslims for whom their religion is no more intrinsically violent than your typical American Christian, and they are perfectly fine neighbors. Most all of them that I have personally experienced, in fact.

[The Brain]

Everyone agrees that the Abrahamic religions are insane.

[Valmy]

Everyone agrees that the Abrahamic religions are insane.

If you guys had just stuck with Odin everything would have been so much better.

[DGuller]

I think this is a strawman - the issue is not what non-Muslims believe, the issue is what the "certifiable lunatics" believe.

And they believe that they are good and true Muslims.

As opposed to other, emotionally torn, extremists?