The Paris Attack Debate Thread

[crazy canuck]

A) Christians moved passed that because most intellectuals, deist or Christian, accepted the Enlightenment and the idea that came with it that religion ought to be emasculated, a tool for keeping social order and not a contender for divided loyalty between the state and their personal faith. Hence why, in France, priests were made to swear (by force if necessary) to the Civil Constitution of the Clergy, and why Napoleon had the Concordate consentend to and signed by the Pope. The same should be done with Imams (and really any and all priests of recognized religions) : They accept a "civil" constitution that preach respect and obedience to the rule of law, plus toleration of the land's law and customs and other people's belief, in exchange for being personally paid and receiving financial support from the state, or they have no permit to preact, their property on their cult is forfeit, and non-citizen "priests" are deported. Even that is more lenient than the fate that was reserved to non-swearing priests (read a date with the Lousiette).

B) It took bloody civil wars (even during the revolution with the Vendée) and Christians killing each other in droves for centuries before Christians, as a whole, finally accepted that tolerating other people's beliefs might be better than constant and brutal chaos all the time. Even the Dechristianization in France during the Revolution was rather brutal. Carrier, Hébert and Fouché really didn't fuck around with abstract liberal concepts of "respecting the liberty of Christians" and "sacrificing liberty for security leads to the loss of both" when their society was in mortal danger.

You may be right, but I think you're overlooking one significant difference: the basic text of Christians was anti-violence, so anyone arguing in favor of anti-violence from a Christian perspective had unimpeachable credibility.

Oh great, another generalization excusing all the violent parts of the Bible and all the violence of Christianity so that Muslims can be targeted for their religion. 

[Grinning_Colossus]

So, at this point, what are the odds of a NATO-ISIS ground war?

[grumbler]

So, at this point, what are the odds of a NATO-ISIS ground war?

Not high enough to suit me.

[Grey Fox]

So, at this point, what are the odds of a NATO-ISIS ground war?

On a 100 scale? 20-25, imo.

Sadly, Russia is still in the way.

[The Minsky Moment]

I would anticipate heavy pressure on Turkey in the coming weeks.  Exploration of military options leads inevitably to scenarios involving supply through Turkey and cooperation with the Kurdish militia forces.  That would require significant change in Turkish policy.   France could invoke the NATO charter thus requiring Turkey's cooperation and assistance as a matter of treaty (if not reality).  Perhaps Erdogan will be more flexible having won his election but I would anticipate friction.

Another obvious line of thought involves broader intel cooperation and more collection efforts; so I would expect renewed debate within Europe about the Snowden question.

[mongers]

I would anticipate heavy pressure on Turkey in the coming weeks.  Exploration of military options leads inevitably to scenarios involving supply through Turkey and cooperation with the Kurdish militia forces.  That would require significant change in Turkish policy.   France could invoke the NATO charter thus requiring Turkey's cooperation and assistance as a matter of treaty (if not reality).  Perhaps Erdogan will be more flexible having won his election but I would anticipate friction.

Another obvious line of thought involves broader intel cooperation and more collection efforts; so I would expect renewed debate within Europe about the Snowden question.

The problem with Turkey is their intelligence services have been caught red-handed sending weapons to ISIS, how do you make sure all of the Turkish state and Erdogen get in line with a firm NATO anti-ISIS response?

[Legbiter]

Without an end to Muslim immigration into France and Europe, Hollande's "pitiless war" isn't a serious proposition. Hell, Mutti Merkel wants to halt Germany's death-spiral demographics by fast-track Islamization. 

Oh, and 16% of French citizens support ISIS.

http://www.newsweek.com/16-french-citizens-support-isis-poll-finds-266795

[The Minsky Moment]

Hence I anticipate friction.
One would hope at this point the Turks see that the blowback risks have become unmanageable and back away from going full Pakistan

[Maladict]

TGV accident with several dead, the French are not getting a break 

https://t.co/N2zBn19BwY

[Zanza]

Without an end to Muslim immigration into France and Europe, Hollande's "pitiless war" isn't a serious proposition. Hell, Mutti Merkel wants to halt Germany's death-spiral demographics by fast-track Islamization. 

You are aware that the refugees flee from the people that committed these acts? 

[Queequeg]

Without an end to Muslim immigration into France and Europe, Hollande's "pitiless war" isn't a serious proposition. Hell, Mutti Merkel wants to halt Germany's death-spiral demographics by fast-track Islamization. 

You are aware that the refugees flee from the people that committed these acts? 

This is cute but silly.

Syria had 50% youth unemployment before the war. I don't know how many refugees have had work in 3 years. They've lived brutal religious conflict instead. And they're going to see all the wealth and culture of Europe but be unable to attain to it or participate in it.

[mongers]

Hence I anticipate friction.
One would hope at this point the Turks see that the blowback risks have become unmanageable and back away from going full Pakistan

Yes one would hope.

My fear is the Turkish states absolute opposition to all things tinged with Kurdistan means a series of irrational responses is more likely; proto-Pakistan?

[Zanza]

Don't leave us hanging. Spell it out. What is your conclusion from these observations?

[Duque de Bragança]

TGV accident with several dead, the French are not getting a break 

https://t.co/N2zBn19BwY

That's a trial TGV for the new high-speed line extending from Lorraine (Baudrécourt) to Strasbourg I guess. Looked a bit like an ICE (German TGV). 5 dead "only" since this was not a normal train operating. Could have been lot worse, I guess that's why there are trials before opening a new line but still.

[LaCroix]

Without an end to Muslim immigration into France and Europe, Hollande's "pitiless war" isn't a serious proposition. Hell, Mutti Merkel wants to halt Germany's death-spiral demographics by fast-track Islamization. 

Oh, and 16% of French citizens support ISIS.

http://www.newsweek.com/16-french-citizens-support-isis-poll-finds-266795

this is like watching the NRA in the aftermath of a school shooting (edit - not just you, legbiter, just the really weak arguments in general blaming all this on islam). you know that article is from over a year ago, right