Shootings and explosions in Paris

[The Minsky Moment]

I love when the cover gets blown on the "refugee" racket.

yeah those Syrian civilians getting their houses burned down and limbs blown off - what a bunch of con men.

[Barrister]

No, it will harm integration. Which is why there has to be some reasonable implementation of these policies, of course, and it should obviously not be done in such a way that makes people feel like they are "assumed guilty" at all, much less "purely because of the way you look".

How about only monitoring people when you actually have reasonable proof that they might commit a terror attack, rather than just because they were born in Aleppo, have a beard, and pray towards Mecca? That seems like a reasonable implementation to me.

This is the lawyer in me coming out - I think your formulation is perfectly fine except when you say the word "proof".  If you have proof you should be arresting people.

What about "only monitoring people when you actually have a reasonable suspicion that they might commit a terror attack".  "Reasonable suspicion" is a judicially considered phrase.

[Berkut]

No, it will harm integration. Which is why there has to be some reasonable implementation of these policies, of course, and it should obviously not be done in such a way that makes people feel like they are "assumed guilty" at all, much less "purely because of the way you look".

How about only monitoring people when you actually have reasonable proof that they might commit a terror attack, rather than just because they were born in Aleppo, have a beard, and pray towards Mecca? That seems like a reasonable implementation to me.

Not really. Your language is *precisely* the problem and the reason people like Trump get traction.

You want to cast perfectly reasonable choices about how to approach security as "You want to monitor people because they have a beard!". You insist that the only way to have a discussion about the issue is with accusatory language from the start.

It is perfectly reasonable to note that if you are looking for terrorists, you should probably not bother looking in populations that do not generally have terrorists (within reason and understanding how that then impacts those trying to hide themselves). If you want to investigate the latest bombing, asking questions at the local Amish church is probably not a good use of your time - asking at the local Mosque that has been known to harbor radicals might be a much better use of your time.

When you do that, and people start screeching about how you are "assuming people are guilty because they have a beard and pray towards Mecca!" then people like Trump LOVE that. Because it makes them look like the only people interested in actually addressing the reality, rather than what we wish was the reality.

Targeting security efforts at the groups that you know predominantly contain the threat is not assuming anyone is guilty. Equating *reasonable* profiling as a tool as being the same as outright racism is exactly the issue I am talking about. When you say that is no different than Trump's demand that all Muslims be refused entry, you play directly into his hands. Both the victims of his racism and the racists listen to that kind of language.

[derspiess]

I love when the cover gets blown on the "refugee" racket.

yeah those Syrian civilians getting their houses burned down and limbs blown off - what a bunch of con men.

You mean con-women & -children.  Absolutely zero young able-bodied men among them.

But obviously I'm talking about their tendency to become permanent residents rather than more temporary refugees.  Send them back home after the conflict?  Ha.

[Berkut]

I love when the cover gets blown on the "refugee" racket.

yeah those Syrian civilians getting their houses burned down and limbs blown off - what a bunch of con men.

You mean con-women & -children.  Absolutely zero young able-bodied men among them.

]
I don't get this part - what difference does it make whether they are men or not?

Why can't able bodied young men be refugees?

But obviously I'm talking about their tendency to become permanent residents rather than more temporary refugees.  Send them back home after the conflict?  Ha.

If you are fleeing a war torn catastrophe, then I imagine it is not surprising if some percentage of those people don't want to go back afterwards. And some of them might want to go back. What difference does this make?

If we accepted as refugees a bunch of Jews fleeing Germany in 1938 (and it is embarrassing and shameful to me that my country turned them away using a lot of the same logic then that we use now), would it come as no surprise that a lot of them aren't much interested in heading back come 1946? What difference would it make to our decision to let them in either way?

[derspiess]

I don't get this part - what difference does it make whether they are men or not?

Obama mocked his opponents for being afraid of Syrian women & children refugees, implying that very few if any were men.

Why can't able bodied young men be refugees?

I guess they can.  But generally speaking they should be back home continuing the fight.

If you are fleeing a war torn catastrophe, then I imagine it is not surprising if some percentage of those people don't want to go back afterwards. And some of them might want to go back. What difference does this make?

If we accepted as refugees a bunch of Jews fleeing Germany in 1938 (and it is embarrassing and shameful to me that my country turned them away using a lot of the same logic then that we use now), would it come as no surprise that a lot of them aren't much interested in heading back come 1946? What difference would it make to our decision to let them in either way?

At least drop the pretense of them being refugees (which implies a temporary status) and just call them immigrants.

[frunk]

At least drop the pretense of them being refugees (which implies a temporary status) and just call them immigrants.

I don't think the categories are mutually exclusive.

[Berkut]

I don't get this part - what difference does it make whether they are men or not?

Obama mocked his opponents for being afraid of Syrian women & children refugees, implying that very few if any were men.

Why can't able bodied young men be refugees?

I guess they can.  But generally speaking they should be back home continuing the fight.

That is just silly. Continuing the fight against who, and for who?

What if they don't want to fight, what if they don't think any of the sides in question are worth fighting for?

What is about being male that means you are obligated to fight regardless of whether you think there is something worth fighting for?

If you are fleeing a war torn catastrophe, then I imagine it is not surprising if some percentage of those people don't want to go back afterwards. And some of them might want to go back. What difference does this make?

If we accepted as refugees a bunch of Jews fleeing Germany in 1938 (and it is embarrassing and shameful to me that my country turned them away using a lot of the same logic then that we use now), would it come as no surprise that a lot of them aren't much interested in heading back come 1946? What difference would it make to our decision to let them in either way?

At least drop the pretense of them being refugees (which implies a temporary status) and just call them immigrants.

They can be both - but right now, at the moment, they are refugees. Calling them immigrants would be saying they are the same as someone NOT fleeing the likelihood of being killed, and that is a distinction that matters a great deal.

What utility is in removing that classification (refugee) in favor of a more general one (immigrant) that provides less information?

[Solmyr]

I guess they can.  But generally speaking they should be back home continuing the fight.

Is there some kind of obligation for young men to fight in a war that they had nothing to do with in the first place?

[derspiess]

They should be fighting against whatever evil that is scaring them into leaving. And I'm speaking specifically of Syria here.

Berkut, do you think Syrian refugees should stay here once things settle down in Syria?  Or do you want them staying here?  Assuming you want them to stay, is that good for the US, specifically people who are US citizens? Or does that matter to you?

[derspiess]

I guess they can.  But generally speaking they should be back home continuing the fight.

Is there some kind of obligation for young men to fight in a war that they had nothing to do with in the first place?

If someone is threatening their homes and families, I would say so.

[Solmyr]

What if they have no weapons and are not trained to fight? Are they still obligated to go and die at the hand of Daesh, in your opinion? Why is saving their families by bringing them here not an option?

[viper37]

two explosions at the passenger side of Brussels Airport. I work at the freight side.
This is unfolding yet. Apparently explosion at American Airlines desk.
I don't suspect this is a gas leak

I sure hope security forces don't focus their attention on Muslims, because that might seem kind of racist.

that would be kinda dumb.
Should we list religion on our passport?

[Barrister]

They should be fighting against whatever evil that is scaring them into leaving. And I'm speaking specifically of Syria here.

Berkut, do you think Syrian refugees should stay here once things settle down in Syria?  Or do you want them staying here?  Assuming you want them to stay, is that good for the US, specifically people who are US citizens? Or does that matter to you?

It would depend on how long the war goes on.

If, miraculously, the war comes to an end in 6 months then it's not unreasonable for them to go back.

But if, say 2+ years on, they've now put down roots, it's not unreasonable to allow them to stay.

The few Jews who fled Germany in the 30s weren't expected to go back post-1945.

[Tamas]

The migration wave into Europe has a good number of people from Iraq, Afghanistan, Nigeria, and a lot others.

FFS, a guy from HAITI was caught crossing the Hungarian border illegally a couple of weeks ago.