The Off Topic Topic

[LaCroix]

Insightful counter-argument.

Wealth matters, and has a tendency to persist for many generations unless it is actively pissed away.  And even if five hundred years from now it won't matter, it matters now.  Why should we handicap ourselves for the benefit of countries potentially hostile to us? 

I'm all for tighter environmental controls;  the difference is that I want good results rather than good intentions.  The pernicious nature of externalities is that they cannot be eliminated by unilateral actions.  Any attempts to do so just decreases the power of actors that understand best the need for a concerted action.

oh, i hadn't noticed the "can pick up the supply slack" part of your post. i didn't mean my "wrong" comment to be a counter-argument. but, this is: your assumption is wrong - decreased pollution by US companies does not translate to increased pollution by chinese companies as some rule of science like you seem to contend.

there is no difference between china and the united states on a fundamental level. this is not star wars, dguller. china is not the sith, and the US is not the jedi. there has never been this dichotomy in the history of mankind. the world does not exist in some masturbatory setting created by s.m. stirling

[DGuller]

Ok.

[Admiral Yi]

2011 CO2 emmissions per capita:

Any idea what the "eq" means?

[Iormlund]

Equivalent.

[Admiral Yi]

What's equivalent to a ton of CO2, but isn't a ton of CO2?

[Iormlund]

There are other things that contribute to global warming. Methane, for example.

[Tamas]

Yes, putting domestic polluting producers out of business just so that China can pick up the supply slack while happily polluting will neither benefit us nor the planet.  It might make us feel better about ourselves, though, and for some people that's priceless.

this is just wrong

No its not you can see it everywhere. Like how France and UK bravely ignore their gas supplies accessible by fracking, because the population doesn't want to RUIN TEH ENVIRONEMENT, but they are fine with importing Russian gas and oil instead, AS IF Russia would give a rats ass about damage to the environment.

[Josquius]

That's the Russian environment. Earthquakes in Russia are fine. :p

But seriously, we're having a hard enough time getting something as awesome as a railway built due to nimbys yet alone fracking fracking.

[Liep]

And here I thought Canada was a better version of America, but it seems they're just a slightly more British version.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/danish-tourists-appalled-by-canada-s-great-oceans-of-car-parks-obesity-1.1947703

Danish tourists appalled by Canada's 'great oceans' of car parks, obesity

Canada may be a major North American tourism draw, but at least two Danish women appear to be pretty disappointed with their recent trip across the Atlantic.
Holly Chabowski recently spent five weeks travelling around Canada with her partner, but it appears their "overwhelming" takeaway was an overabundance of car parks.
So disgusted was Chabowski by Canada's "dirty" air and "huge SUVs," she felt compelled to pen an open letter to Canada and its politicians, urging them to take serious action toward a more "sustainable" land.
In the letter, addressed to a Canadian newspaper and the "people who hold power and responsibility in Canada," Chabowski said when she and her partner got off their plane from Denmark, they were "horrified to see great oceans of car parks."
"Our overwhelming memory of Canada is one of cars, traffic, parking and the related obesity and unfulfilled communities," Chabowski wrote.
Chabowski said prior to her Canuck trip, she had the genuine impression of a clean, and sustainable country. It seems trips to major cities like Toronto, Halifax and Ottawa soon changed that.
In Toronto, the pair was struck by 12-lane highways that were apparently "rammed packed with huge SUVs."
It wasn't any better in Halifax, where they found "ginormous swaths of prime locations for living ... concreted over as homes for an ever increasing number of SUVs."
"As humans trying to enjoy Canada's major cities (Toronto, Montreal, Quebec City, Ottawa and Halifax) we were treated like second class citizens compared to cars," Chabowski wrote. "The air was dirty, the constant noise from horns and engines was unpleasant."
The most SUVs they saw in a row, she wrote, had a single occupant and were moving through a Tim Hortons drive-thru.
Attempting to end the letter on a positive note, Chabowski said Canadians are a nation of "fantastic people" who deserve better.
"I write this letter to appeal to you to take radical steps to transform Canada into the healthy, happy and sustainable country we were expecting."
But Ottawa Mayor Jim Watson said Canada is undeserving of such a harsh critique.
"I meet people all the time, from all over the world, that come here and are very impressed with the amount of green space, cycling facilities, the cleanliness of our cities," Watson told CTV Ottawa.
Perhaps Canadians don't cycle as much as the Danish, but there could be a good reason for that: Watson pointed out that Ottawa is 32 times larger than Copenhagen, the capital of Denmark.
Still, others say decision-makers should pay attention to an outsider's observations.
"Our cities could be much nicer, and a lot of that is just having better bike paths, and nicer places and easier was to get around," said Alex Devries, of Citizens for Safe Cycling.
Devries points out that Helsinki, which has a similar climate to Ottawa, has a better bicycling culture.
And while some might take offence to Chabowski's obesity jab, studies show that up to 26 per cent of Canadians are obese, compared to just 18 per cent of people in Denmark.

[Eddie Teach]

Chabowski said when she and her partner got off their plane from Denmark, they were "horrified to see great oceans of car parks."

Do Danish people typically ride bicycles to the airport? 

[Josquius]

I can relate. Similar issues were my major culture shock in Japan.

[Liep]

Chabowski said when she and her partner got off their plane from Denmark, they were "horrified to see great oceans of car parks."

Do Danish people typically ride bicycles to the airport? 

Usually the train, the metro or the bus. Parking is 800 kr per week, which I guess is roughly $150.

[Syt]

Had a look at Vienna Airport - parking is between 104 and 180 Euros for one week, 150 to 300 for two weeks.

[alfred russel]

Parking in the Atlanta airport is $14 / day. It was a great way to get credit card points when going out of town on business for a couple months and I could just charge it to the client/company. Until the policy was changed and we need to find cheaper options. 

[Malthus]

And here I thought Canada was a better version of America, but it seems they're just a slightly more British version.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/danish-tourists-appalled-by-canada-s-great-oceans-of-car-parks-obesity-1.1947703

Danish tourists appalled by Canada's 'great oceans' of car parks, obesity

Canada may be a major North American tourism draw, but at least two Danish women appear to be pretty disappointed with their recent trip across the Atlantic.
Holly Chabowski recently spent five weeks travelling around Canada with her partner, but it appears their "overwhelming" takeaway was an overabundance of car parks.
So disgusted was Chabowski by Canada's "dirty" air and "huge SUVs," she felt compelled to pen an open letter to Canada and its politicians, urging them to take serious action toward a more "sustainable" land.
In the letter, addressed to a Canadian newspaper and the "people who hold power and responsibility in Canada," Chabowski said when she and her partner got off their plane from Denmark, they were "horrified to see great oceans of car parks."
"Our overwhelming memory of Canada is one of cars, traffic, parking and the related obesity and unfulfilled communities," Chabowski wrote.
Chabowski said prior to her Canuck trip, she had the genuine impression of a clean, and sustainable country. It seems trips to major cities like Toronto, Halifax and Ottawa soon changed that.
In Toronto, the pair was struck by 12-lane highways that were apparently "rammed packed with huge SUVs."
It wasn't any better in Halifax, where they found "ginormous swaths of prime locations for living ... concreted over as homes for an ever increasing number of SUVs."
"As humans trying to enjoy Canada's major cities (Toronto, Montreal, Quebec City, Ottawa and Halifax) we were treated like second class citizens compared to cars," Chabowski wrote. "The air was dirty, the constant noise from horns and engines was unpleasant."
The most SUVs they saw in a row, she wrote, had a single occupant and were moving through a Tim Hortons drive-thru.
Attempting to end the letter on a positive note, Chabowski said Canadians are a nation of "fantastic people" who deserve better.
"I write this letter to appeal to you to take radical steps to transform Canada into the healthy, happy and sustainable country we were expecting."
But Ottawa Mayor Jim Watson said Canada is undeserving of such a harsh critique.
"I meet people all the time, from all over the world, that come here and are very impressed with the amount of green space, cycling facilities, the cleanliness of our cities," Watson told CTV Ottawa.
Perhaps Canadians don't cycle as much as the Danish, but there could be a good reason for that: Watson pointed out that Ottawa is 32 times larger than Copenhagen, the capital of Denmark.
Still, others say decision-makers should pay attention to an outsider's observations.
"Our cities could be much nicer, and a lot of that is just having better bike paths, and nicer places and easier was to get around," said Alex Devries, of Citizens for Safe Cycling.
Devries points out that Helsinki, which has a similar climate to Ottawa, has a better bicycling culture.
And while some might take offence to Chabowski's obesity jab, studies show that up to 26 per cent of Canadians are obese, compared to just 18 per cent of people in Denmark.

There is only one "12 lane highway" in Toronto, and that is the 401. Admittedly it is a nightmare to drive on, but it is not something one sees unless one drives on it - it runs quite a bit to the north of the city. Methinks a traveller driving down the 401 is in a poor position to criticize the local's use of cars.

Also, I would love to know how this pair failed to notice that Canada is slightly larger than Denmark, and that bicycles are not as sensible an option for getting around.