The Off Topic Topic

[garbon]

English language question: the whole using "they" as denoting neutral singular gender. How widespread/accepted is it? Will it look weird if I start using it in formal writing?

As Tyr notes pretty common. However, unless they updated recently, I think most formal writing standards still advise against singular they as too informal.

[DGuller]

Seems to be very uncommon in a business setting, in my experience.  Might be wise to give it a couple of years and see if this is one of those fads that passes.

[celedhring]

English language question: the whole using "they" as denoting neutral singular gender. How widespread/accepted is it? Will it look weird if I start using it in formal writing?

As Tyr notes pretty common. However, unless they updated recently, I think most formal writing standards still advise against singular they as too informal.

I see, thanks.

[garbon]

Seems to be very uncommon in a business setting, in my experience.  Might be wise to give it a couple of years and see if this is one of those fads that passes.

Informal usage of singular they that started before we were born might be a passing fad?

[Razgovory]

English language question: the whole using "they" as denoting neutral singular gender. How widespread/accepted is it? Will it look weird if I start using it in formal writing?

Common in the vernacular, but style guides are often all over the place with it (or at least were 10 years ago).

[garbon]

Most commonplaces I'd use it are when either I don't know or it is irrelevant to what I'm saying.

"He saw the doctor and they told him..."
"I called the bank and they said..."

[DGuller]

Most commonplaces I'd use it are when either I don't know or it is irrelevant to what I'm saying.

"He saw the doctor and they told him..."
"I called the bank and they said..."

I was thinking more of "they" as replacement for where you would use "he/she", or just "he" as default.  The first one sounds like a recent accepted use to me, the second one doesn't.  The doctor is a particular person, the bank is a nebulous entity.  Obviously you spoke with a person when you called the bank, but that person may as well stand in for the bank itself.

[The Brain]

Depends on the bank. Would be silly to call a sperm bank anything other than he.

[Josquius]

Depends on the bank. Would be silly to call a sperm bank anything other than he.

But your mam is a she?


:p

Sorry. I couldn't not.

[DGuller]

Depends on the bank. Would be silly to call a sperm bank anything other than he.

But your mam is a she?


:p

Sorry. I couldn't not.

That's just way over the line, you should never make assumptions about people's preferred pronouns.

[The Brain]

Let me ask MU-TH-UR.

[Sheilbh]

I was thinking more of "they" as replacement for where you would use "he/she", or just "he" as default.  The first one sounds like a recent accepted use to me, the second one doesn't.  The doctor is a particular person, the bank is a nebulous entity.  Obviously you spoke with a person when you called the bank, but that person may as well stand in for the bank itself.

Yeah I'm with G - I have used "they" for singular for a long time and I see it being used very commonly for years. For example, precisely in that example where you could use "he/she" or "he" as a default.

The other two examples are ones I'd absolutely use "they" in as Garbo does - and I don't think it would cause confusion which is what matter because I think it is pretty common. As I say all of this, for me, pre-dates any awareness of non-binary or identifying your pronouns or gender fluidity or any of those current issues. I think it is fairly common in the vernacular and I think English as a language tends to be pretty lax around pronouns and gender and plural/singular - I think it's far more important in other languages because of the way objects are gendered etc.

My suspicion - and I could be wrong - is that in part my usage may reflect an earlier fight from feminists pushing back against a default "he" and the "he/she" alternative is ungainly, so instead people adopted "they" even though it was singular and it's previously a plural pronoun. I think certainly in the vernacular and in formal business and legal writing it will shift, to the extent it hasn't already (and I think in England it broadly has precisely on the "he/she" point) because they follow the vernacular - just thinking of contract I can definitely see say "Vendor shall [...] in particular they shall..." with "they" rather than "it", I feel that's more normal now (at least in England).

Edit: And as I say this all pre-dates the personal pronoun awareneww now and has nothing to do with not assuming because I wasn't conscious of those issues. At least for me "they" is the default and always has been if it didn't really matter (in addition to "he/she" being ungainly I wonder if this is also caused by constantly getting scolded as a kid: "who's she? The cat's mother?" )

[DGuller]

I didn't mean to imply that "they" was an answer to trans issues, I agree that it was an answer to the perception that a default "he" implies that all doctors are male.  I still don't hear it used in the business world, and garbon's first sentence (but not the second one) would likely sound unusual enough in that setting that I would probably notice.

[Josquius]

Come to think, in formal language you could be right on avoiding they.
Thinking of non-fiction books I've read, I find they often tend to switch between whether the vague human they're talking to applying their ideas is a he or she from chapter to chapter. Which....ja.

[Eddie Teach]

That's more confusing than using they.