The Off Topic Topic

[Sheilbh]

I think there's actually probably useful way of thinking about other IP rights in that.

But typically, IP rights expire over time.

Some - trademarks, trade secrets can last forever, and in a way I think this isn't a million miles from trade secrets esepcially when there's manufacturing/ingredient requirements.

The difference is most IP rights are monopolised to a single holder - these are open to anyone who meets the criteria but protected.

[Jacob]

That's actually no longer true.

There was substantial opposition to another extension of copyright, so the major powers that be didn't even bother to try to fight to extend copyright.  Steamboat Willie (and therefore the earliest incarnation of Mickey Mouse) hits the public domain in 2024.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/01/a-whole-years-worth-of-works-just-fell-into-the-public-domain/

Oooh! That's exciting!

[Barrister]

I think there's actually probably useful way of thinking about other IP rights in that.

But typically, IP rights expire over time.

Some - trademarks, trade secrets can last forever, and in a way I think this isn't a million miles from trade secrets esepcially when there's manufacturing/ingredient requirements.

The difference is most IP rights are monopolised to a single holder - these are open to anyone who meets the criteria but protected.

Trade secrets are a bad example - there's not actually any government protection.  That's just a company keeping something a secret.  Like Coke's secret formula.

The better counter-example would be Trademark, which doesn't expire, and just exists in order to help properly identify a producer.  But you can't Trademark something that's highly generic (which is why so many companies are inventing new words to name themselves).

[Barrister]

That's actually no longer true.

There was substantial opposition to another extension of copyright, so the major powers that be didn't even bother to try to fight to extend copyright.  Steamboat Willie (and therefore the earliest incarnation of Mickey Mouse) hits the public domain in 2024.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/01/a-whole-years-worth-of-works-just-fell-into-the-public-domain/

Oooh! That's exciting!

I'm glad I could share some happy news about the world with someone.

The article goes on about how complex this can get - for example early MM is public domain, but not later changes / additions to the character.  And draws the comparison with Sherlock Holmes, of whom most works are public domain but not later works.

[Sheilbh]

Trade secrets are a bad example - there's not actually any government protection.  That's just a company keeping something a secret.  Like Coke's secret formula.

Not really - I think it's closest to this. There's no registration you can protect in the courts - and there is a legal framework for it in European law (which basically aligns with the common law approach).

But as long as you have something that is commercially valuable and you keep it confidential, then you can protect it. The courts will issue injunctions, they hold hearings in closed court, they will redact judgments etc, you can get preservation orders or other remedies.

The reason I think it's similar is you basically had people in an area develop some distinctive way to produce something (like the recipe to coke or the KFC - because recipes can't generally be protected by IP law except as a trade secret). And now instead of having to keep it among those individual producers the criteria are opened up and you can get the badge if you meet that criteria, but you may have your own secret sauce recipe anyway.

And the original producers with the original secret sauce recipe are protected from people doing horrible things off their reputation and simultaneously trashing it - see everyone's view of cheddar outside of the UK

The better counter-example would be Trademark, which doesn't expire, and just exists in order to help properly identify a producer.  But you can't Trademark something that's highly generic (which is why so many companies are inventing new words to name themselves).

Yeah there's something of that to it as well.

[garbon]

PDO is very silly and exists to protect producers who cannot hack it in the marketplace, but it's not extremely harmful and seems a fairly cheap way to pander to specific regions.

Fair.

[garbon]

What is the 'original' production of cheddar and who even is aware of it?  This sort of originator + reputation chasing strikes me as silly.

It's literally called cheddar gorge

And the bastardisation of cheddar around the world is a very good example of why I think PDOs are worthwhile.

To me they're a sort of community IP right. It is normally something that's part of the intangible heritage of that place and community (and I think place matters) and they get to benefit from it becoming popular and industrialised. But also there are normally quite strict rules around the production - which is open so anyone can make it in accordance with the rules. So with feta, let's say, the types of milk you can use and how you produce it - any farm in the area can do that, it isn't protected to the actual existing producers.

I think there's actually probably useful way of thinking about other IP rights in that.

How does cheddar prove the importance? It seems highly unlikely that anyone alivehas had the same cheese as it was produced back then. What you call bastardisation is the natural evolution of food.

Terroir also seems interesting given things like climate change certainly are ensuring changes over time.

[Sheilbh]

How does cheddar prove the importance? It seems highly unlikely that anyone alivehas had the same cheese as it was produced back then. What you call bastardisation is the natural evolution of food.

I think we're talking about different things. I'm not against industrialisation of food production - though as I say I think it's good that benefits the area the food is from and has some controls).

But earlier in this thread I think there were several North Americans saying how awful cheddar is and it seemed like basically a brand name for cheap rubbery bland cheese there - and it is here too. Difference is you can get the real stuff here - and it's a shame that that brand has been trashed. It should be known like Stilton or Wensleydale or Dorset Blue and that if you buy it, that's what you'll get.

Terroir also seems interesting given things like climate change certainly are ensuring changes over time.

Oh yeah - I mean don't think they're fixed for eternity and they will evolve. New foods and traditions will emerge that deserve protecting, others will shift etc.

[Josquius]

Totally agree on cheddar. It's shocking how many knock offs there are.

[Eddie Teach]

Vermont cheddar is delicious.

[Oexmelin]

Meh. Vermont has much better cheeses out there. The Von Trapp (yes, those Von Trapp) do make excellent cheese; try the Oma, or their blue. Their partners at Jasper Hill make an amazing Winnimere.

[garbon]

I think we're talking about different things. I'm not against industrialisation of food production - though as I say I think it's good that benefits the area the food is from and has some controls).

But earlier in this thread I think there were several North Americans saying how awful cheddar is and it seemed like basically a brand name for cheap rubbery bland cheese there - and it is here too. Difference is you can get the real stuff here - and it's a shame that that brand has been trashed. It should be known like Stilton or Wensleydale or Dorset Blue and that if you buy it, that's what you'll get.

My point was that I don't think you've ever had the original cheddar if we are following Jacob's line of reasoning about tracing things to their originators. Existing cheddar is not the same.

I'm not really sure where the harm is with regards to those cheaper, inferior forms. I don't think that the affordable, widely available form really hurts sales of the superior, more expensive form by virtue of them both being called cheddar. In the groceries stores that I grew up with in the US, the better quality cheeses were in a separate section (more often in the deli area vs generic refrigerated section).

Oh yeah - I mean don't think they're fixed for eternity and they will evolve. New foods and traditions will emerge that deserve protecting, others will shift etc.

Why do they need to be protected? Why the artificial propping up of haphazardly chosen foods/traditions?

[Jacob]

My point was that I don't think you've ever had the original cheddar if we are following Jacob's line of reasoning about tracing things to their originators. Existing cheddar is not the same.

That wasn't my line of reasoning.

My line of reasoning is that people are attempting to cash in on the cachet of established names. This is true when it comes to champagne, to cheddar, and to whatever else.

[grumbler]

My point was that I don't think you've ever had the original cheddar if we are following Jacob's line of reasoning about tracing things to their originators. Existing cheddar is not the same.

That wasn't my line of reasoning.

My line of reasoning is that people are attempting to cash in on the cachet of established names. This is true when it comes to champagne, to cheddar, and to whatever else.

Sure, and some of those trying to cash in are makers of sparkling wines in the Champagne province of France.  The quality of protected champagne varies enormously.  You can pay US$54 for a bottle of 2002 Champagne champagne, or US$4,285, or anything in between.  The PDO doesn't seem to me to be a great indicator of quality.

[Sheilbh]

My point was that I don't think you've ever had the original cheddar if we are following Jacob's line of reasoning about tracing things to their originators. Existing cheddar is not the same.

Yeah but I don't think that's ever been my point - or what Jake's saying.

I'm not really sure where the harm is with regards to those cheaper, inferior forms. I don't think that the affordable, widely available form really hurts sales of the superior, more expensive form by virtue of them both being called cheddar. In the groceries stores that I grew up with in the US, the better quality cheeses were in a separate section (more often in the deli area vs generic refrigerated section).

But their brand is trashed. It does need to lose them money for that to be a bad thing.

Why do they need to be protected? Why the artificial propping up of haphazardly chosen foods/traditions?

For the same reason we list some buildings or we make Areas of Natural Beaty or conservation ares - that's for our built and natural environment. This is cultural and also sensory.