The Off Topic Topic

[grumbler]

Say what?

We have to take away your freedom to make you free.

Thats the basics of how civilization works.

Though in this case not having laws agaisnt preparing for terrorist attacks= if you're doing this and brown you get snatched by men in black anyway with no legal recourse.

As said however missing the point. Shelibh got it.

Nobody was missing the point that you neglected to make.  That Sheilbh was able to read your mind should disturb him.

And your claim that a nation needs to make a law against "possessing a record of information* likely to be useful**to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism" in order to have any "laws agaisnt [sic] preparing for terrorist attacks" is absurd.  In civilized countries, mere possession of information that would likely be useful to a terrorist isn't a crime, because there could well be innocent reasons for such possession.  Civilized nations require overt acts to show intention to commit terrorist acts.

*wtf?

**wtff?  A dictionary is "likely to be useful" to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism.  Ordinance Survey maps?  Useful to a person preparing a terrorist attack, so 15 years in the slammer for me if I lived in the UK (unless it was per map, in which case I'd be banged up for more than 200 years).

[Josquius]

Grumbler...read what actually happened here. It wasn't some guy with a dictionary. He was publically ranting about gay people and immigrants, and had amassed a large collection (10s of thousands of documents) of far right terrorism related material. A lot of signs suggesting he was a likely terrorist in the making.
No court in the land would convict on the basis that having directions to London would be useful to a terrorist wanting to attack London or the like.
I eagerly await some nit picky debate club bullshit about why I'm wrong and suck and you win and are the bestest.

[Razgovory]

What is "far right terrorism related material"  What sort of documents are we talking about here?

[Richard Hakluyt]

Another case of "thought-crime" 

[Sheilbh]

What is "far right terrorism related material"  What sort of documents are we talking about here?

From the local news report - and court reporting isn't great and I'm always a little uncomfortable criticising judgements like this (sometimes it's too outrageous) because the trials are rarely covered and we don't see stuff like the psychological assessment so we don't have many of the facts:

John had first been identified as a terror risk days after his 18th birthday and was referred to the Prevent programme but carried on downloading "repellant" right-wing documents as well as a manual which contained bomb-making instructions.

He also read about the Nazis and wrote a letter raging against gay people, immigrants and liberals.

On August 11 this year he was found guilty by a jury of possessing information likely to be useful for preparing an act of terror. The court heard the conviction had a maximum jail sentence of 15 years.

[...]

John was given a two-year jail sentence suspended for two years plus a further year on licence, monitored by the probation service.

He was also given a five-year Serious Crime Prevention Order requiring him to stay in touch with the police and let them monitor his online activity and up to 30 days on a Healthy Identity Intervention programme.

Earlier in the sentencing hearing Ben Lloyd, prosecuting, told the court John had failed to respond to warnings in the past.

In January 2018 he had come to the attention of the authorities for his extreme views and had meetings with Prevent officers, which aims to de-radicalise young people at risk of extremism.

But in May 2018 John, who is from Lincoln, wrote a letter to his school claiming to be part of "The Lincoln Fascist Underground", with a tirade against gay people and immigrants, which led to more intensive intervention by Prevent and psychiatric evaluation.

That did not stop him and in April 2019 he copied more than 9,000 right-wing and terror-related documents onto the hard drive of his computer, adding another 2,600 a few months later in August 2019.

Those documents were only discovered in January 2020 after John's student accommodation in Saxby Street, Highfields, Leicester, was raided by police.

They included seven documents that the judge described as being "many, many viable instructions on how to make devastating explosions".

Lincolnshire Police had to carry out a forensic examination of his hard drives because they had been wiped by John, of Addison Drive, Lincoln, a month before the raid.

The documents included "a worrying amount of right-wing literature and imagery".

Judge Spencer said: "It is repellent, this content, to any right-thinking person.

"This material is largely relating to Nazi, fascist and Adolf Hitler-inspired ideology.

"But there was also a substantial quantity of more contemporary material espousing extreme right-wing, white-supremacist material.

"You suggested at trial it was mere academic fascination - I reject that. My view is that to a significant degree you have aligned with these ideologies and to a significant degree have adopted the views expressed as your own."

The bomb-making literature was examined by British military experts at Porton Down near Salisbury and seven of the documents had accurate guides to making firearms, ammunition and explosive devices.

But Mr Bentley, representing John, argued that his client was "very young" and "not likely to cause harm".

He said that despite still having the documents on his computer throughout 2019 he had been "engaging well" with Prevent team officers at that time. Mr Bentley said the whole case again John was "really about not deleting items on a computer", which the judge described as an "over-simplification" of the case.

Mr Bentley said: "Violence is the necessary ingredient of terrorism. It is not the prosecution case he was planning a terrorist attack.

"He was fascinated by extreme right-wing views and shared those views himself.

[...]

Commenting on the sentence, Counter Terrorism Policing East Midlands Detective Inspector James Manning, who led the investigation, said: "This was a young man who could be anyone's son, studying at university, and living one life in public, while conducting another in private.

"He possessed a wealth of National Socialist and anti-Semitic material which indicated a fascination and belief in a white supremacist ideology along with support for an extreme satanic group which is increasingly of concern for law enforcement agencies.

"The terrorist material he was found in possession of is extremely dangerous, and he acquired this to further his ideology.

"It indicates the threat that he and other followers of this hateful ideology pose to national security.

"It was not light reading, or material most would concern themselves with for legitimate reasons. This has been a long and complex investigation over the course of 11 months."

De Montfort University confirmed John was a criminology student when he was arrested but had been suspended with immediate effect on his arrest.

[grumbler]

Sounds like a nasty piece of work, but I note that he was charged with "possessing a record of information likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism" when he was not, in fact, any longer in possession of them.

Lincolnshire Police had to carry out a forensic examination of his hard drives because they had been wiped by John, of Addison Drive, Lincoln, a month before the raid.

So he was found guilty, apparently, of having  possession of such materials because he once had possession of such materials.  So, apparently, if he'd had a change of heart it was too late because, once possessed, those documents are always possessed.

I wouldn't think that such retrospective thought crimes would be criminal in the US, but would be interested to hear from a US law talker on this.  I mean, mere possession of material that a prosecutor might think could conceivably be useful to a person who was planning a terrorist act would expose everyone running the Southern poverty Law Center to jail, because they have hate group material to track its content. 

But, luckily for them, the SPLC is not located in the UK.

[Sheilbh]

The crime isn't limited to possessing a record - it can also include collecting or making a record or viewing or accessing such material over the internet - they're all in s. 58. Although this might still be possession when it comes to things stored on computers - for example, child or other illegal porn, or stuff covered by the Official Secrets Act. A record normally means an electronic record which can survive your attempt at deleting it.

There is a defence if someone has a reasonable excuse for having the material - like the SPLC or journalists or academics beyond the first year of criminology or just not knowing.

I have no doubt this wouldn't be permitted in the US but I think the US and UK have very different attitudes on free speech and stuff like that (see also, the Official Secrets Act ).

Edit: And actually after reading the local press coverage I feel the judge may have got it right that it's teenage folly and the guy should be given a chance.

[Razgovory]

I am unsure how to feel about all of that.

[mongers]

I'm not sure a free country should be trying to criminalise people for being an obnoxious wanker.

[PDH]

I think we should tax all foreigners living abroad.

[Tamas]

I am unsure how to feel about all of that.

I am not. Its terrible. Sure the kid is a wanker and he will grow up to be a bitter insufferable git but, barely avoiding prison for at some point in time possessing records of information that somebody deemed potentially useful for terrorist actions is very 1984 stuff.

As Sheilbh pointed out if he was a Muslim far right prick instead  of a white Christian prick he now would be in jail. But that makes it worse, not better.

[Syt]

The future is now.



"THIS IS FOOD"

[The Brain]

1 drink = 1 meal is a very old method.

[Tonitrus]

Accept only the original. 



(yes, it is a real thing)

[Syt]

Here's one for Beeb: