The Off Topic Topic

[Valmy]

For once, this isn't about you.  Nobody is saying Kitchener, Ontario should be renamed, or that statues of Sir John A Macdonald should be removed, or that the Edmonton Eskimos change there name, are saying that we should do it because of US protests.

Did you read my post, plenty of people in the UK and Canada seem to think it is.

Anyway the timing suggests that this is being done as some kind of solidarity. Maybe it is just a coincidence.

[Sheilbh]

Might be a London thing due to limited space? Everyone seems to have them up here.

London/student flat thing maybe. Also I think space for the ventilation pipe is a bit of an issue because London flats are dreadful for that generally.

[Josquius]

In Japan kettles are somewhat rare. I always found it rather funny and quaint to use those stove top things. Though they do have a certain style.

So cancel culture strikes again - now there are demands that the city of Kitchener, Ontario change it's name.

https://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/kitchener-name-change-debate-being-revisited-1.4985290

Of course the irony here is that the city has already changed it's name once.  It used to be called Berlin, and was changed during WWI to be named after a British Field Marshall, Herbert Kitchener.

Changing it back to Berlin seems sensible all round

[Sheilbh]

Electric kettles are probably the most important appliance in any student dorm room/kitchen.

The noodle years.

[The Larch]

Electric kettles are rare in Spain, AFAIK. They're sometimes available in shops but not really super popular. A Polish friend thought we were a bunch of barbarians and had to search a bit around town until she found one.

Washing machines used to be essential back in the day, but lately lots of self service laundromats are popping up, so I guess that cheaper flats don't have them anymore.

[Valmy]

Changing it back to Berlin seems sensible all round

Or at least no more or less sensible than changing it to Kitchener in the first place.

Though I just want to point out that reason we want confederate statues taken down is because they were set up specifically to communicate to the black population, and their friends, that the white people were supreme once more and celebrate the victory of redemptionism. Typically they will even include commentary announcing this fact on them.

Whereas the city's name was not changed to Kitchener to celebrate imperialist conquest of the Sudan of the Boer States but to indicate support of the Allied Cause in WW1. They weren't trying to send a message to the South African and Sudanese inhabitants of Berlin.

[celedhring]

Electric kettles are rare in Spain, AFAIK. They're sometimes available in shops but not really super popular. A Polish friend thought we were a bunch of barbarians and had to search a bit around town until she found one.

Washing machines used to be essential back in the day, but lately lots of self service laundromats are popping up, so I guess that cheaper flats don't have them anymore.

Over here they're heavily used by immigrants. Which I guess fits the "cheaper flats" provision, or either cultural differences. The one closest to my flat is clearly marketed to latin-americans.

[The Larch]

Electric kettles are rare in Spain, AFAIK. They're sometimes available in shops but not really super popular. A Polish friend thought we were a bunch of barbarians and had to search a bit around town until she found one.

Washing machines used to be essential back in the day, but lately lots of self service laundromats are popping up, so I guess that cheaper flats don't have them anymore.

Over here they're heavily used by immigrants. Which I guess fits the "cheaper flats" provision, or either cultural differences. The one closest to my flat is clearly marketed to latin-americans.

Same here, customers are either inmigrants or young people.

[Barrister]

Though I just want to point out that reason we want confederate statues taken down is because they were set up specifically to communicate to the black population, and their friends, that the white people were supreme once more and celebrate the victory of redemptionism. Typically they will even include commentary announcing this fact on them.

One way to think about these sorts of monuments is to ask "what is the reason we're honouring this person"?  If the reason we're honouring them is good and noble, but that person also happened to do some things that aren't morally acceptable now, that's one thing.  People like Washington and Jefferson would fall into this category.

If the reason we're honouring this person is because of the morally unacceptable things they did (like Confederate generals), that's a whole other thing.

[alfred russel]

Deeply random history question: did any Greek leaders encourage acceptance of Macedonian or Roman supremacy based on the idea that it is better to roll with the winners - especially when they aren't so bad?

I had thought Phocion's point was that--but was just reading his portion of Plutarch's Parallel Lives and it seems I was wrong. Maybe Polybius?

[Sheilbh]

Though I just want to point out that reason we want confederate statues taken down is because they were set up specifically to communicate to the black population, and their friends, that the white people were supreme once more and celebrate the victory of redemptionism. Typically they will even include commentary announcing this fact on them.

One way to think about these sorts of monuments is to ask "what is the reason we're honouring this person"?  If the reason we're honouring them is good and noble, but that person also happened to do some things that aren't morally acceptable now, that's one thing.  People like Washington and Jefferson would fall into this category.

If the reason we're honouring this person is because of the morally unacceptable things they did (like Confederate generals), that's a whole other thing.

Yeah - I also think Valmy's point is fair and linked to timing. The example that's most relevant is Clive of India. He was hugely controversial and unpopular in his lifetime - the "attitudes of the time" were not that he was a great guy doing God's work. That's why there are no statues of him until 1912.

The statue wasn't even supported by the current Viceroy of India (though it was backed by Lord Curzon). It was a specific ideological purpose at a moment of extreme Imperial anxiety and pessimism. I don't think that's a million miles away from Confederate statues going up as part of a North-South reconciliation based on Jim Crow and the "lost cause".

[Legbiter]

Deeply random history question: did any Greek leaders encourage acceptance of Macedonian or Roman supremacy based on the idea that it is better to roll with the winners - especially when they aren't so bad?

I had thought Phocion's point was that--but was just reading his portion of Plutarch's Parallel Lives and it seems I was wrong. Maybe Polybius?

Yeah Polybius is writing as an eyewitness to the Romans annexing Greece after the Achean war. As I recall he's a survivor trying to explain why Rome of all places rose to dominance. Great writer, very vivid descriptions of the sack of Corinth for instance.

[Syt]

Deeply random history question: did any Greek leaders encourage acceptance of Macedonian or Roman supremacy based on the idea that it is better to roll with the winners - especially when they aren't so bad?

I had thought Phocion's point was that--but was just reading his portion of Plutarch's Parallel Lives and it seems I was wrong. Maybe Polybius?

Yeah Polybius is writing as an eyewitness to the Romans annexing Greece after the Achean war. As I recall he's a survivor trying to explain why Rome of all places rose to dominance. Great writer, very vivid descriptions of the sack of Corinth for instance.

I guess it helped his perspective that he was brought as hostage to Rome (living quite comfortably, though).

[Maladict]

Americans don't have kettles?

I think they sometimes have stovetop kettles, but they don't have electric kettles

At least according to friend in New York - along with the no washing machine in flats as standard.

Yeah, it's true. Pan of water on the stove. Shocker.

[Legbiter]

I guess it helped his perspective that he was brought as hostage to Rome (living quite comfortably, though).

Yeah Polybius landed on his feet in the new Roman order. Top Roman commanders included him in their retinues. He personally witnessed the sack of Carthage.