Majority of U.S. public school students are in poverty; first time in 50 years

[grumbler]

I'm not sure that's true.  I've read some articles suggesting that poor people do in fact act as rationally as anyone else.  It's just that given there specific situations the choices they make might not seem optimal in hindsight.

When someone argues that poor people tend to be irrational, this will be an effective counter-argument.

[Jacob]

I'm not sure that's true.  I've read some articles suggesting that poor people do in fact act as rationally as anyone else.  It's just that given there specific situations the choices they make might not seem optimal in hindsight.

When someone argues that poor people tend to be irrational, this will be an effective counter-argument.

Oh boy. I can't wait for that to happen.

[CountDeMoney]

When someone argues that poor people tend to be irrational, this will be an effective counter-argument.

Oh boy. I can't wait for that to happen.

Won't have to wait long;  after all, it's been the basis of gender politics and policy for centuries, so tossing in teh poors isn't much of a stretch.

[Berkut]

Fact is that overall poor people make bad decisions compare to the not poor. Anecdotes about some poor people making good decisions are not disproof of that.

Let me know when you want to talk about facts and reality rather than feeling superior while harming those you want to feel superior about...

I'm not sure that's true.  I've read some articles suggesting that poor people do in fact act as rationally as anyone else.  It's just that given there specific situations the choices they make might not seem optimal in hindsight.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/your-brain-on-poverty-why-poor-people-seem-to-make-bad-decisions/281780/

You can act rationally and yet still make what is an objectively poor choice.

I can understand why it seems rational to not care if you get pregnant at 16, that doesn't suddenly mean that in fact it was a good choice.

[dps]

How does being poor make one inherently a bad decision maker? 

Strawman, much?  No one is arguing that poor people are inherently bad decision makers.  The terms we've used have been along the lines of "tends to", "on average", "in general", "all else being equal", not "inherently".

I guess I should thank Berkut for linking to the data that supports my initial statement that poor people are more likely to be irresponsible about using contraceptives.  Frankly, I wasn't going to do so, any more than if I'd been asked to link to data showing that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, because it's fucking obvious to anyone who bothers to pull their head out of their ass and look around.  And given that even with the data linked, you still are arguing what Berkut, grumbler and  are saying, it was a waste of time anyway.

[crazy canuck]

How does being poor make one inherently a bad decision maker? 

Strawman, much?  No one is arguing that poor people are inherently bad decision makers.  The terms we've used have been along the lines of "tends to", "on average", "in general", "all else being equal", not "inherently".

I guess I should thank Berkut for linking to the data that supports my initial statement that poor people are more likely to be irresponsible about using contraceptives.  Frankly, I wasn't going to do so, any more than if I'd been asked to link to data showing that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, because it's fucking obvious to anyone who bothers to pull their head out of their ass and look around.  And given that even with the data linked, you still are arguing what Berkut, grumbler and  are saying, it was a waste of time anyway.

You claim that poor people tend to be, on average are, in general are, all else being equal are: irresponsible?  And you want to avoid making the claim that there is something inherent about being poor that make the poor irresponsible? 

[grumbler]

How does being poor make one inherently a bad decision maker? 

Strawman, much?  No one is arguing that poor people are inherently bad decision makers.  The terms we've used have been along the lines of "tends to", "on average", "in general", "all else being equal", not "inherently".

I guess I should thank Berkut for linking to the data that supports my initial statement that poor people are more likely to be irresponsible about using contraceptives.  Frankly, I wasn't going to do so, any more than if I'd been asked to link to data showing that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, because it's fucking obvious to anyone who bothers to pull their head out of their ass and look around.  And given that even with the data linked, you still are arguing what Berkut, grumbler and  are saying, it was a waste of time anyway.

You claim that poor people tend to be, on average are, in general are, all else being equal are: irresponsible?  And you want to avoid making the claim that there is something inherent about being poor that make the poor irresponsible?

Reading comprehension fail, still.  No one says that it is poverty itself that causes people to be irresponsible.  Why don't you just fucking read the arguments for the other side and respond to them, instead of continually creating strawmen arguments to knock down?

[crazy canuck]

How does being poor make one inherently a bad decision maker? 

Strawman, much?  No one is arguing that poor people are inherently bad decision makers.  The terms we've used have been along the lines of "tends to", "on average", "in general", "all else being equal", not "inherently".

I guess I should thank Berkut for linking to the data that supports my initial statement that poor people are more likely to be irresponsible about using contraceptives.  Frankly, I wasn't going to do so, any more than if I'd been asked to link to data showing that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, because it's fucking obvious to anyone who bothers to pull their head out of their ass and look around.  And given that even with the data linked, you still are arguing what Berkut, grumbler and  are saying, it was a waste of time anyway.

You claim that poor people tend to be, on average are, in general are, all else being equal are: irresponsible?  And you want to avoid making the claim that there is something inherent about being poor that make the poor irresponsible?

Reading comprehension fail, still.  No one says that it is poverty itself that causes people to be irresponsible.  Why don't you just fucking read the arguments for the other side and respond to them, instead of continually creating strawmen arguments to knock down?

I hope you dont teach logic to your students.  There are a lot of reasons poor people might tend to be disadvantaged compared to rich people in stats like unwanted pregnancy that have little or nothing to do with being irresponsible.  But when someone makes the claim, like you Berkut and DPS have made that poor people tend to be more irresponsible you gloss over all the othe possible explanations and go right for the argument that in some way being poor makes people more irresponsible than others.

[Malthus]

I'm not sure that's true.  I've read some articles suggesting that poor people do in fact act as rationally as anyone else.  It's just that given there specific situations the choices they make might not seem optimal in hindsight.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/your-brain-on-poverty-why-poor-people-seem-to-make-bad-decisions/281780/

This strikes me as a reasonable explaination. Why bother saving for the future, if you are likely to run out of money right now, and by all indications your efforts will not be rewarded with a reasonable chance of getting out of poverty anyway?

[Berkut]

I'm not sure that's true.  I've read some articles suggesting that poor people do in fact act as rationally as anyone else.  It's just that given there specific situations the choices they make might not seem optimal in hindsight.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/your-brain-on-poverty-why-poor-people-seem-to-make-bad-decisions/281780/

This strikes me as a reasonable explaination. Why bother saving for the future, if you are likely to run out of money right now, and by all indications your efforts will not be rewarded with a reasonable chance of getting out of poverty anyway?

This was noted a long time ago in the thread - that what the non-poor classify as "irresponsible" can in fact be rationally justified. I talked about it quite a bit myself, including anecdotally about my own experiences growing up in poverty.

But it isn't a refutation of the general observation, but rather an explanation for why from their perspective it doesn't appear to be irresponsible per se...but in fact it is just that, because the reality is that (in the US at least) it is entirely possible to get out of poverty. It isn't even all that hard, quite honestly. But it does require people to make good decisions, and in many cases the people who have to make those good decisions are not equipped to do so because of the very environment they are raised in.

[crazy canuck]

I'm not sure that's true.  I've read some articles suggesting that poor people do in fact act as rationally as anyone else.  It's just that given there specific situations the choices they make might not seem optimal in hindsight.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/your-brain-on-poverty-why-poor-people-seem-to-make-bad-decisions/281780/

This strikes me as a reasonable explaination. Why bother saving for the future, if you are likely to run out of money right now, and by all indications your efforts will not be rewarded with a reasonable chance of getting out of poverty anyway?

Its far easier to simply make the observation the poor people are more likely, tend to be, on the whole, or whatever other weasly words one may wish to use, are more irresponsible than others.   The hard part that Grumbler and others have found is that it is far harder to explain away the implication they are necessarily making.

[Berkut]

You are a dishonest fuck sometimes, you know that CC?

Nobody here is arguing that those explanations are not accurate, that is a bald faced lie. Nobody is "implying" anything but you.

I must be getting old, my tolerance for dealing with people like you is at an end.

[Malthus]

But it isn't a refutation of the general observation, but rather an explanation for why from their perspective it doesn't appear to be irresponsible per se...but in fact it is just that, because the reality is that (in the US at least) it is entirely possible to get out of poverty. It isn't even all that hard, quite honestly. But it does require people to make good decisions, and in many cases the people who have to make those good decisions are not equipped to do so because of the very environment they are raised in.

I do wonder about that - it seems to me that it is getting harder and harder for those not already doing well to lift themselves into doing well. Hence the title article of the thread. 

The lot of us are simply too old to have a good handle on this. When I was starting out, sure it was not too hard to get jobs, and even a shitty service-sector job was a decent springboard into something better - so work hard and even without higher education (not all that hard, in Canada at least, to get anyway), and you could at least be decently okay.

I just don't know how true that is anymore. From what I hear, it appears to be a lot harder.

[crazy canuck]

You are a dishonest fuck sometimes, you know that CC?

No, every time you don't understand another position (or choose not to think about it) you react in of two childish ways.  Either you stamp your feet and go all hurricane Berkut and insist that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong or you simply claim the other side a is lying.  I have explained a number of times why your claims don't make sense.  Rather than responding to those repeated posts you simply call me a liar.  Like I said.  Childish.

[11B4V]

Ah, we're back. All is right in the universe.