Majority of U.S. public school students are in poverty; first time in 50 years

[grumbler]

Indeed. As someone who came from a poor background, really pretty much halfway to white trash? I think that article captures the psychology very well.

What is frustrating about this is that it makes it really hard to discuss. Since it is in fact at its basic level a matter of poor people acting in a manner that seems very irresponsible to everyone else (even if it makes "sense" from their perspective), noting that *immediately* gets the Jacob/CC types trying to turn it into a issue of bigotry, and it allows the actual bigots to dismiss the issue as "they deserve it", neither of which is actually true of course.

I've never understood the knee-jerk reaction of both the white knights and the snobs to the issue of poverty.  Poverty actually exists, and can be measured and analyzed like any other intellectual concept, so would seem to be a fit subject for intellectual discussion.  That contrasts with constructs such as race or religion, where we can't even define what these ideas are, let alone intellectually discuss them, and so knee-jerkism is fairly understandable.

The statement that "poor people are more likely to act irresponsibly" seems to me to be as intellectually valid a statement (given the evidence) as the statement "people with head colds sneeze more."  No one acts the white knight or the snob about the latter.

[DontSayBanana]

Are you saying that poor people are not as responsible and like sex more?

Correlation, causation.  I have heard sociologists characterize wealthier and more successful families as more highly scheduled than their poorer or less successful counterparts- so even if they like sex equally, possibly even if they're equally diligent about using protection, there could simply be more opportunity for sex with a lower-class couple.

[Razgovory]

Indeed. As someone who came from a poor background, really pretty much halfway to white trash? I think that article captures the psychology very well.

What is frustrating about this is that it makes it really hard to discuss. Since it is in fact at its basic level a matter of poor people acting in a manner that seems very irresponsible to everyone else (even if it makes "sense" from their perspective), noting that *immediately* gets the Jacob/CC types trying to turn it into a issue of bigotry, and it allows the actual bigots to dismiss the issue as "they deserve it", neither of which is actually true of course.

I've never understood the knee-jerk reaction of both the white knights and the snobs to the issue of poverty.  Poverty actually exists, and can be measured and analyzed like any other intellectual concept, so would seem to be a fit subject for intellectual discussion.  That contrasts with constructs such as race or religion, where we can't even define what these ideas are, let alone intellectually discuss them, and so knee-jerkism is fairly understandable.

The statement that "poor people are more likely to act irresponsibly" seems to me to be as intellectually valid a statement (given the evidence) as the statement "people with head colds sneeze more."  No one acts the white knight or the snob about the latter.

  Don't ever change.

[crazy canuck]

The statement that "poor people are more likely to act irresponsibly" seems to me to be as intellectually valid a statement (given the evidence) as the statement "people with head colds sneeze more."  No one acts the white knight or the snob about the latter.

lol, Are you really suggesting that that poor people have some kind of condition (your analogy) which causes them to be more likely to act irresponsibly?  Having come from poverty I can tell you that condition tends to create a state of mind favouring prudence over risk.


One observational error you are making is that there are a lot more poor people; therefore even though the percentage of irresponsible poor people may be low compared to the percentage of rich irresponsible people their absolute numbers will be much greater. 

[The Brain]

In Sweden poor people are poor because they decided not to get an education, and not start a business or similar. And since you don't have to pay for education...

[Berkut]

The statement that "poor people are more likely to act irresponsibly" seems to me to be as intellectually valid a statement (given the evidence) as the statement "people with head colds sneeze more."  No one acts the white knight or the snob about the latter.

lol, Are you really suggesting that that poor people have some kind of condition (your analogy) which causes them to be more likely to act irresponsibly? 

That is exactly correct, actually. Poverty begets more poverty, and much of that is due to consistently "irresponsible" decision making - this isn't a controversial idea.

We've disproven conclusively your earlier "question" in regards to pregnancy - the rate of unintended pregnancy among the poor is 5 times that of the rest of the population. That is the rate, btw, hence adjusted for number.

Having come from poverty I can tell you that condition tends to create a state of mind favouring prudence over risk.

Wow, having come from poverty I can state definitely that among those who stay poor, that is very much not the case.

Of course, they don't really look at it as "prudence" vs "risk", they look at it as "It doesn't fucking matter anyway, because there is no way out of this, so fuck it, I think I will have another beer/joint/kid/whatever..."

One observational error you are making is that there are a lot more poor people; therefore even though the percentage of irresponsible poor people may be low compared to the percentage of rich irresponsible people their absolute numbers will be much greater. 

Not material to the discussion. Studies have shown that poor people consistently make bad decisions compared to the not poor. Has nothing to do with populations.

And again, the contrast is not with "rich" people, it is with the not poor. And hence your claim that the numbers are skewed is bogus as well - there are more non-poor people in the US than there are poor people.

[Siege]

Why are there so many words in this thread? Damit.

[crazy canuck]

That is exactly correct, actually. Poverty begets more poverty, and much of that is due to consistently "irresponsible" decision making - this isn't a controversial idea.

We've disproven conclusively your earlier "question" in regards to pregnancy - the rate of unintended pregnancy among the poor is 5 times that of the rest of the population. That is the rate, btw, hence adjusted for number.

Can you spot the logical leap you are making?

I agree that poverty begets more poverty more often than not.  But the reason is very different from the "irresponsible decision making" you propose.  Blaming the poor for being poor is an ideological device that is controversial and given you have already said you understand the need for state assistance for the poor, inconsistent on your part.

[Berkut]

That is exactly correct, actually. Poverty begets more poverty, and much of that is due to consistently "irresponsible" decision making - this isn't a controversial idea.

We've disproven conclusively your earlier "question" in regards to pregnancy - the rate of unintended pregnancy among the poor is 5 times that of the rest of the population. That is the rate, btw, hence adjusted for number.

Can you spot the logical leap you are making?

I agree that poverty begets more poverty more often than not.  But the reason is very different from the "irresponsible decision making" you propose.  Blaming the poor for being poor is an ideological device that is controversial and given you have already said you understand the need for state assistance for the poor, inconsistent on your part.

No at all inconsistent, because I am not blaming the poor for being poor, I am stating that being poor leads to bad decision making. That isn't blaming them, not is it claiming that the ONLY reason the poor are poor is because they make bad decisions. There are lots of reasons, obviously, but recognizing that poor people make shitty decisions which makes the problem worse is not blaming them, it is recognizing a fact that is one of many variables involved.

You know what does contribute to the problem? Ideological ignorance and unwillingness to accept objective reality because it makes you uncomfortable, so you would rather pretend that something that is true isn't true, and perpetuate the problem.

There are many reason why poverty begets more poverty - one of those reasons is that poor people consitently make shitty, stupid decisions. There are, additionally, many reasons for THAT as well,including lack of education relative to the non-poor, and even just that stupid people who make bad decisions are in fact more likely to be poor as a result of their stupid, bad decisions.

There are lots of reasons for poverty that have nothing to do with poor people and their own capabilities at all, of course. But pretending that being poor is some condition that the people we are talking about have no control over at all does nobody any favors in the long run, especially in the liberal west where overall there actually does exist reasonable opportunity for nearly everyone.

[Siege]

The whole idea that the State have to feed the people seems ridicoulus to me.
The State needs to get the hell out of the way and let the free market economy allow the people to feed themselves.
Keep taxing the rich and you'll see where your jobs will go.

[garbon]

The whole idea that the State have to feed the people seems ridicoulus to me.
The State needs to get the hell out of the way and let the free market economy allow the people to feed themselves.
Keep taxing the rich and you'll see where your jobs will go.

It seems like it would be bad idea for everyone involved to sit and watch as one's fellow countrymen starve to death.

[Berkut]

I can't even bring myself to respond to Siege on economic issues. It is like talking to a 4 year old who just randomly regurgitates out of context Rush Limbaugh quotes.

[The Brain]

This whole thread is out of context!

[grumbler]

lol, Are you really suggesting that that poor people have some kind of condition (your analogy) which causes them to be more likely to act irresponsibly?  Having come from poverty I can tell you that condition tends to create a state of mind favouring prudence over risk.

Lol, have you paid no attention to what I write whatsoever?  Poor people tend to be poorly educated - they don't all suffer from "some kind of condition" (which is your analogy, not mine) which causes them to be more likely to act irresponsibly.  Poor education tends to lead to more irresponsible decision-making, as a result of both inability to predict consequences, and ignorance of the need to predict consequences.  Having come from poverty, I can tell you that condition tends to create a state of mind favoring risk over prudence.

One observational error you are making is that there are a lot more poor people; therefore even though the percentage of irresponsible poor people may be low compared to the percentage of rich irresponsible people their absolute numbers will be much greater. 

One observational error you are making is that you don't realize that your reading comprehension sucks: "rate" doesn't refer to absolute numbers, but relative numbers (that's what all the "per 1,000" references in my data were about).  You need to learn the differences between rate (which I actually used) and raw numbers (which you erroneously assumed - either out of ignorance or negligence - that I used).  Right now, your ass is showing, and it is getting reddened with every post you write.

[crazy canuck]

That is exactly correct, actually. Poverty begets more poverty, and much of that is due to consistently "irresponsible" decision making - this isn't a controversial idea.

We've disproven conclusively your earlier "question" in regards to pregnancy - the rate of unintended pregnancy among the poor is 5 times that of the rest of the population. That is the rate, btw, hence adjusted for number.

Can you spot the logical leap you are making?

I agree that poverty begets more poverty more often than not.  But the reason is very different from the "irresponsible decision making" you propose.  Blaming the poor for being poor is an ideological device that is controversial and given you have already said you understand the need for state assistance for the poor, inconsistent on your part.

No at all inconsistent, because I am not blaming the poor for being poor, I am stating that being poor leads to bad decision making.

How does being poor make one inherently a bad decision maker?  Some of the wisest people I have ever met were poor.  They were wise with their money and their judgments because they could not afford not to be.  And your notion that people have some control over whether they are poor feeds directly into the narrative which blames them for being poor.  ie they deserve to be poor because if they had just made better decisions, worked harder etc etc they would not be poor.

Fact is a lot of poor people are poor even though they work hard and act responsibly.  Someone up stream made the joke that of course poor people lack good judgment, they are poor aren't they.  You have fallen into that illogical hole.