Columbia student carrying mattress until school expels her rapist

[garbon]

And really, Raz, where does that go? If you aren't protesting/taking action against any and everything you dislike, think is unjust, etc. are you accepting it?

In a legal situation, I think that is accurate.  I'm not a big fan of "symbolic protests" and other such stuff.

Alright so what's the full boundaries of that - do you think in a legal situation? Like let's say you report a crime  and the cops don't investigate or do a cursory investigation. Are you just accepting that a crime wasn't committed if you don't continue to push? And in the case where it is a crime committed against yourself, how much onus is on the victim that you'd consider them to have crossed the line from accepting it wasn't a crime and not?

[DontSayBanana]

I find one interesting bit here to be the perception that ejecting a student who has (and yes, because of the ramifications, I'm going to leave it to "has" and not "likely has") committed an assault is some form of de facto judicial measure.

What everybody's glossing over is that college dorms are massive repositories of 17-21 year olds, many of whom have had no experience living independently.  If the college is going to take the students and provide their shelter, I believe that 1) it's not unreasonable to hold the college to a moderate standard of ensuring the safety of its resident student population, and 2) ejection of a student found to have committed sexual assault is by no means an "overreaction."  Just the knowledge that that person is still on campus can have a hugely detrimental effect on student safety- the likelihood that people won't report incidents or that students with emotions running high will try to take on their own handling of ejecting the culprit are just too high.


TL;DR:


1) Schools should immediately get out of the business of conducting their own investigations of sexual assault.  Immediately give it to the pros and don't take on that liability yourself.


2) Schools provide shelter for students, and part of that shelter is providing a safe environment, up to and including removing threats from the premises.


3) Combining 1 and 2, schools should be reporting everything to LEOs and acting every time the authorities make that call, but only when the authorities make that call.

[CountDeMoney]

 

http://politi.co/1CiN4HL

[garbon]

http://politi.co/1CiN4HL

I have to ashamedly admit that I like the jezebel play by play.

http://jezebel.com/frat-alumni-president-blames-drunk-female-guests-for-ru-1638524129

[Razgovory]

And really, Raz, where does that go? If you aren't protesting/taking action against any and everything you dislike, think is unjust, etc. are you accepting it?

In a legal situation, I think that is accurate.  I'm not a big fan of "symbolic protests" and other such stuff.

Alright so what's the full boundaries of that - do you think in a legal situation? Like let's say you report a crime  and the cops don't investigate or do a cursory investigation. Are you just accepting that a crime wasn't committed if you don't continue to push? And in the case where it is a crime committed against yourself, how much onus is on the victim that you'd consider them to have crossed the line from accepting it wasn't a crime and not?

I would say you keep reporting a crime until they tell you they aren't going to do shit about it or the person is found not guilty.  Then you have to accept the reality of the situation.

[garbon]

Yeah most people have better shit to do / don't feel like making it all about a crime that happened to them.

Plus they wouldn't be accepting that the crime didn't happen but rather accepting that the police couldn't be bothered to care.

[Martinus]

I've a minor quibble regarding the bit in bold. If someone was raped and process ended with rapist getting away with it, are they expected to accept the results of the process?

Yes.  That's part of the rule of law.  One cannot only accept the rulings that one agrees with.  Vigilantiism is frowned upon.

Oh well that's a whole different thing entirely. Where's this vigilantism bit coming from? It is possible to not accept the result of a process and yet not become a vigilante, no?

I would say trying to put pressure on the system so that someone who was found not guilty by the system nonetheless is punished is a form of vigilantism.

[MadImmortalMan]

I'm assuming she's allowed to carry the mattress outside the free-speech zone? 

[Razgovory]

Yeah most people have better shit to do / don't feel like making it all about a crime that happened to them.

Plus they wouldn't be accepting that the crime didn't happen but rather accepting that the police couldn't be bothered to care.

I suspect that people who have been raped tend regard that as rather important.

[grumbler]

What everyone is glossing over is that schemes like DSB proposes were, in fact, the way universities treated sexual assault right up until the resulting rape epidemic caused congress to change the rules on how campuses were to protect their students from  sexually aggressive fellow-students.  We know for a fact that it doesn't work to have schools ignore allegations of sexual misconduct until they rise to the level of a convicted-in-criminal-court felony. 

As a result of changes to Title IX, universities are obliged to work actively, not passively as some here have recommended, to ensure the safety of their students and the creation of an atmosphere free of fear and intimidation.  They must investigate claims of sexual harassment, misconduct, and assault.  They must encourage those who report being victims of crime to report those crimes to the police.  But, whether the criminal justice system sanctions the alleged perp or not, the universities still bear a responsibility to rid themselves of students or behaviors that create a hostile atmosphere for other students.

This is, of course, no different than they treat any other violation of the student code of conduct.  Only a few forms of bullying are actually violations of the law, but the universities are obliged to stamp out all bullying that comes to their attention, whether the criminal justice system acts in those cases or not.  Ditto for racist comments, "fag bashing," or anything else that creates a hostile atmosphere.  I don't mention lying or cheating here, because I think even DSB believes that universities should deal with those outside the criminal justice system.

In this case, i believe that Colombia did exactly what it was obliged to do, and that the system worked as it was supposed to.  Sulkowicz, on the other hand, doesn't come off so well: for all her current vehemence, she didn't seem to mind the guy being on campus for more than a year between the time of the incident and the time she reported it.  She doesn't seem to think his actions were sufficiently criminal to be worth pursuing in the criminal justice system.  Her real objection seems to be that the schools student misconduct review panel didn't accept her story at its face value, and she wants the right to appeal every decision that goes against her until she gets a decision that doesn't.

tl; dr
(1) DSB and others propose going back to the old system that allowed the campus rape crisis to begin; we should reject this sort of reactionary thinking

(2) Colombia seems to have done everything right and above-board, and Sulkowicz everything selfishly and emo.  I have no sympathy for her.

[Martinus]

What everyone is glossing over is that schemes like DSB proposes were, in fact, the way universities treated sexual assault right up until the resulting rape epidemic caused congress to change the rules on how campuses were to protect their students from  sexually aggressive fellow-students.  We know for a fact that it doesn't work to have schools ignore allegations of sexual misconduct until they rise to the level of a convicted-in-criminal-court felony. 

As a result of changes to Title IX, universities are obliged to work actively, not passively as some here have recommended, to ensure the safety of their students and the creation of an atmosphere free of fear and intimidation.  They must investigate claims of sexual harassment, misconduct, and assault.  They must encourage those who report being victims of crime to report those crimes to the police.  But, whether the criminal justice system sanctions the alleged perp or not, the universities still bear a responsibility to rid themselves of students or behaviors that create a hostile atmosphere for other students.

This is, of course, no different than they treat any other violation of the student code of conduct.  Only a few forms of bullying are actually violations of the law, but the universities are obliged to stamp out all bullying that comes to their attention, whether the criminal justice system acts in those cases or not.  Ditto for racist comments, "fag bashing," or anything else that creates a hostile atmosphere.  I don't mention lying or cheating here, because I think even DSB believes that universities should deal with those outside the criminal justice system.

In this case, i believe that Colombia did exactly what it was obliged to do, and that the system worked as it was supposed to.  Sulkowicz, on the other hand, doesn't come off so well: for all her current vehemence, she didn't seem to mind the guy being on campus for more than a year between the time of the incident and the time she reported it.  She doesn't seem to think his actions were sufficiently criminal to be worth pursuing in the criminal justice system.  Her real objection seems to be that the schools student misconduct review panel didn't accept her story at its face value, and she wants the right to appeal every decision that goes against her until she gets a decision that doesn't.

tl; dr
(1) DSB and others propose going back to the old system that allowed the campus rape crisis to begin; we should reject this sort of reactionary thinking

(2) Colombia seems to have done everything right and above-board, and Sulkowicz everything selfishly and emo.  I have no sympathy for her.

Even her last name is emo.

[CountDeMoney]

Even her last name is emo.

Analwicz would be too much irony.

[DontSayBanana]

What everyone is glossing over is that schemes like DSB proposes were, in fact, the way universities treated sexual assault right up until the resulting rape epidemic caused congress to change the rules on how campuses were to protect their students from  sexually aggressive fellow-students.  We know for a fact that it doesn't work to have schools ignore allegations of sexual misconduct until they rise to the level of a convicted-in-criminal-court felony.

Step away from the bag of straw.

I'm not saying anything should be ignored, I'm saying everything should be reported to the police.  Sexual offenses are a criminal matter and should be left to the authorities.

Where is this magic instance of sexual assault that doesn't rise to the level of a felony?  Not rape-rape?

[celedhring]

Getting drunk and copping a feel in student parties, for example? There's lots of insidious behavior that doesn't rise to a criminal matter that people can be educated about.

[garbon]

Yeah most people have better shit to do / don't feel like making it all about a crime that happened to them.

Plus they wouldn't be accepting that the crime didn't happen but rather accepting that the police couldn't be bothered to care.

I suspect that people who have been raped tend regard that as rather important.

And yet oddly all the time rape victims don't actually report what has been happened to them or get cold feet. To say those individuals are accepting that a crime didn't actually occur is...well mind-boggling.