Columbia student carrying mattress until school expels her rapist

[grumbler]

What everyone is glossing over is that schemes like DSB proposes were, in fact, the way universities treated sexual assault right up until the resulting rape epidemic caused congress to change the rules on how campuses were to protect their students from  sexually aggressive fellow-students.  We know for a fact that it doesn't work to have schools ignore allegations of sexual misconduct until they rise to the level of a convicted-in-criminal-court felony.

Step away from the bag of straw.

I'm not saying anything should be ignored, I'm saying everything should be reported to the police.  Sexual offenses are a criminal matter and should be left to the authorities.

Where is this magic instance of sexual assault that doesn't rise to the level of a felony?  Not rape-rape?

Stop making up arguments that don't exist.  All suspected lawbreaking is supposed to be reported to the police under the system you want to scrap.  Not all sexual offenses are criminal, and not all alleged criminal sexual offenses are successfully prosecuted, so if students are to be protected against unsuccessfully-prosecuted assault and non-criminal sexual misconduct, civil sanctions are warranted.

I don't think magic has anything to do with this.  And you create a strawman by changing "sexual misconduct" (which is what the universities punish) to 'sexual assault" (which is what the criminal justice system prosecutes).  No one else argues that sexual assault is something you seem to think is "rape-rape."  All sexual assault is sexual misconduct, but not all sexual misconduct is sexual assault.  Publishing nude photos of a sexual partner in revenge for a breakup is sexual misconduct, for instance, but not sexual assault.  Some schools require a higher level of explicit consent to sex for intoxicated students than non-intoxicated ones - sex under this concept of consent may not be criminal sexual assault, but could still be a violation of the student code of conduct prohibition of sexual misconduct.

As I have noted before, the university disciplinary process is more akin to the civil justice system than the criminal justice system.  The one distinguishing feature between the civil model and the university discipline model is that, since about two years ago, universities are required to investigate and process claims of sexual misconduct even when the accuser declines to cooperate.

[Malthus]

What everyone is glossing over is that schemes like DSB proposes were, in fact, the way universities treated sexual assault right up until the resulting rape epidemic caused congress to change the rules on how campuses were to protect their students from  sexually aggressive fellow-students.  We know for a fact that it doesn't work to have schools ignore allegations of sexual misconduct until they rise to the level of a convicted-in-criminal-court felony.

Step away from the bag of straw.

I'm not saying anything should be ignored, I'm saying everything should be reported to the police.  Sexual offenses are a criminal matter and should be left to the authorities.

Where is this magic instance of sexual assault that doesn't rise to the level of a felony?  Not rape-rape?

Heh, I tried saying something like this before - for some reason, it isn't getting through. Don't sweat it. 

[Malthus]

As an aside, she is a shitty ad for the value of a Colombia education.  She is arguing for either an infinite process of appealing to reverse every decision that one of the involved parties does not like or else she is arguing that she deserves a special rule just for her.

I'm going to put joking aside for a moment because it seems the line between crude jokes and actual misogyny is getting blurry.

She is one of two parties that knows exactly what happened. Lets assume that she actually was raped (which isn't very far fetched--I doubt most rape victims are making their stories up). So she knows she was raped, and the powers that be came to a decision that allowed her rapist to continue as her classmate. Maybe there was a procedural flaw in the decision, maybe the rules governing the system are flawed, or maybe it was just a he said/she said situation with a presumption of innocence. Whatever the case may be, the outcome was an injustice, and that is worth drawing attention to.

Also, confronted with a system that won't or can't punish her rapist, this may be a means to maximize his discomfort and punish him through the exercise of her free speech rights.

I would agree with you in a different case.

In this case, the alleged victim did not go through with the usual process - she dropped charges against the alleged perp, allegedly because she found the cops annoyingly persistent in questioning her, and couldn't be bothered with cooperating with their investigation, which would take up too much of her effort and time (and that was her explaination). It can hardly be said that 'the system failed her', when she hasn't bothered to pursue the ordinary avenue of redress (the police). She hasn't used the system.

One possible inference from this is that she, for whatever reason, strongly suspects that the police investigation will conclude that the charges were not justified (it is incredible, to me at least, that she would go through all the bother of carrying a matress with her everywhere to protest a crime against her, while at the same time finding a police investigation into the same incident 'too onerous').

As to possible motive for the charade, assuming the crime was not actually committed ... well, there are several possibilities. First is revenge against this guy, for whatever reason. Second, fame - she is on the cover of magazines. Third is popularity - she has a whole faction of the student body supporting her. Not to mention the 'art project' aspect.

Again, this is no reflection on the prevelence of sexual assault on campus, which is a serious problem.

[grumbler]

What everyone is glossing over is that schemes like DSB proposes were, in fact, the way universities treated sexual assault right up until the resulting rape epidemic caused congress to change the rules on how campuses were to protect their students from  sexually aggressive fellow-students.  We know for a fact that it doesn't work to have schools ignore allegations of sexual misconduct until they rise to the level of a convicted-in-criminal-court felony.

Step away from the bag of straw.

I'm not saying anything should be ignored, I'm saying everything should be reported to the police.  Sexual offenses are a criminal matter and should be left to the authorities.

Where is this magic instance of sexual assault that doesn't rise to the level of a felony?  Not rape-rape?

Heh, I tried saying something like this before - for some reason, it isn't getting through. Don't sweat it. 

Yes, and you were just as wrong as DSB.  Don't sweat it.

[derspiess]

Later on then Paul apparently said (as told by Sulkowicz)
"Paul denied the charges. If Sulkowicz is a fencer, she alleges he told the panel, her legs are the strongest part of her body, and he was only a lightweight rower - how could he have pinned her legs down? The anal sex was consensual, he said. He went into detail about how he came on Sulkowicz, and then she grabbed a tissue, wiped the ejaculate off, and 'threw the tissue away,' she says. 'None of which is true- he never came that night. He just stopped and ran away."

I never caught that in Letters of Paul.  Maybe it's in that NIV I never bothered to read.

[alfred russel]

I would agree with you in a different case.

In this case, the alleged victim did not go through with the usual process - she dropped charges against the alleged perp, allegedly because she found the cops annoyingly persistent in questioning her, and couldn't be bothered with cooperating with their investigation, which would take up too much of her effort and time (and that was her explaination). It can hardly be said that 'the system failed her', when she hasn't bothered to pursue the ordinary avenue of redress (the police). She hasn't used the system.

One possible inference from this is that she, for whatever reason, strongly suspects that the police investigation will conclude that the charges were not justified (it is incredible, to me at least, that she would go through all the bother of carrying a matress with her everywhere to protest a crime against her, while at the same time finding a police investigation into the same incident 'too onerous').

My basic understanding of the facts of her allegation: she was having consensual sex, the dude went for unauthorized anal which she protested, and she didn't file charges until somewhat later. That seems to my amateur eye to be the sort of case that is almost impossible to prove. I don't think it is far fetched that the police communicated this to her, directly or indirectly, and she would be relectant to express that by saying something like "the investigators were skeptical that the allegations had enough supporting evidence to get a conviction in court."

That doesn't change that she experienced what happened. Maybe she is fabricating the whole story--as you say she does have some incentives to do so. But then maybe she isn't. Probably only she and the guy know for sure.

[Martinus]

Even her last name is emo.

Analwicz would be too much irony.

Funnily, in Polish "wicz" is pronounced "witch".

[Martinus]

What everyone is glossing over is that schemes like DSB proposes were, in fact, the way universities treated sexual assault right up until the resulting rape epidemic caused congress to change the rules on how campuses were to protect their students from  sexually aggressive fellow-students.  We know for a fact that it doesn't work to have schools ignore allegations of sexual misconduct until they rise to the level of a convicted-in-criminal-court felony.

Step away from the bag of straw.

I'm not saying anything should be ignored, I'm saying everything should be reported to the police.  Sexual offenses are a criminal matter and should be left to the authorities.

Where is this magic instance of sexual assault that doesn't rise to the level of a felony?  Not rape-rape?

This is the type of reasoning that leads to kids being jailed for drawing a gun in a notebook. There are many cases of inappropriate behaviour - especially among young people - that should not be criminalised but should be corrected by disciplinary means.

[garbon]

Even her last name is emo.

Analwicz would be too much irony.

Funnily, in Polish "wicz" is pronounced "witch".

Wow.

[Martinus]

Even her last name is emo.

Analwicz would be too much irony.

Funnily, in Polish "wicz" is pronounced "witch".

Wow.

?

[DontSayBanana]

This is the type of reasoning that leads to kids being jailed for drawing a gun in a notebook. There are many cases of inappropriate behaviour - especially among young people - that should not be criminalised but should be corrected by disciplinary means.

Oh, Marty.  I've missed your analogies.

Nowhere did I indicate action should be taken by the authorities prior to an assault actually occurring, hence my repeated use of the word "assault."  The schools can keep an eye on patterns of risky behavior, but that's prior to an assault and can be done administratively.


Some examples of administrative means to prevent: get a solid pledge from fraternities and sororities that parties will be dry, even off-campus (giving them some actual teeth to deal with fraternities that get around dry campus rules by holding events off-campus).  Less obvious examples would be that later classes should be scheduled nearer to dorms to minimize students being alone in isolated areas at night. Staggered hourly foot patrol by campus security/police along footpaths during night hours.

[garbon]

Even her last name is emo.

Analwicz would be too much irony.

Funnily, in Polish "wicz" is pronounced "witch".

Wow.

?

I was just excited about this insightful line of discussion.

[derspiess]

Some examples of administrative means to prevent: get a solid pledge from fraternities and sororities that parties will be dry, even off-campus (giving them some actual teeth to deal with fraternities that get around dry campus rules by holding events off-campus). 

[Malthus]

I would agree with you in a different case.

In this case, the alleged victim did not go through with the usual process - she dropped charges against the alleged perp, allegedly because she found the cops annoyingly persistent in questioning her, and couldn't be bothered with cooperating with their investigation, which would take up too much of her effort and time (and that was her explaination). It can hardly be said that 'the system failed her', when she hasn't bothered to pursue the ordinary avenue of redress (the police). She hasn't used the system.

One possible inference from this is that she, for whatever reason, strongly suspects that the police investigation will conclude that the charges were not justified (it is incredible, to me at least, that she would go through all the bother of carrying a matress with her everywhere to protest a crime against her, while at the same time finding a police investigation into the same incident 'too onerous').

My basic understanding of the facts of her allegation: she was having consensual sex, the dude went for unauthorized anal which she protested, and she didn't file charges until somewhat later. That seems to my amateur eye to be the sort of case that is almost impossible to prove. I don't think it is far fetched that the police communicated this to her, directly or indirectly, and she would be relectant to express that by saying something like "the investigators were skeptical that the allegations had enough supporting evidence to get a conviction in court."

That doesn't change that she experienced what happened. Maybe she is fabricating the whole story--as you say she does have some incentives to do so. But then maybe she isn't. Probably only she and the guy know for sure.

That's as may be, I agree that rape in the course of otherwise-consentual sex is always going to be difficult to prove by its very nature, particularly where the alleged victim waits some years after the fact to report it, but my point is that sympathy for those protesting that 'the system failed me' should be muted in cases in which the person making that allegation haven't attempted to fully use the 'system' which they claimed to have 'failed'.

What, exactly, is she claiming 'the system' ought to have done differently? In what way dit it "fail"? From her interview, it seems her beef is that she wasn't allowed to continually appeal the verdict at the administrative hearing until they agreed with her.

[garbon]

From her interview, it seems her beef is that she wasn't allowed to continually appeal the verdict at the administrative hearing until they agreed with her.

I think you protest too much. Making one appeal that denied is hardly "continually".