Scottish Independence

[Maladict]

Congrats Britons, for showing the world how to do these things in a civilized way.

[Martinus]

Ideally -given the way the vote went- the UK now ends up with 5 parliaments on the islands:
1 for each of the main constituent peoples (N-Ireland, Wales, Scotland and England) and one for the realm at large.
But in such a scenario do it better than Belgium did (not that this will be hard: most everyone does everything better than when Belgium does something)

Yeah this sounds like a good idea, but do keep Belgium and especially Austria-Hungary in mind: it is entirely possible to create a federal state where all parts just disable each other.

Well, truth be told, these countries had French, and Poles and Hungarians, respectively, within their borders, so they already started from a losing position.

[celedhring]

I'm not too sure A-H is a valid comparison, what with it being an absolute monarchy. It's a bit hard to disprove the whole "Despotic Opressors in [insert nation capital]" discourse,  when they are, indeed, Despotic Opressors in [insert nation capital].

[Duque de Bragança]

But in such a scenario do it better than Belgium did (not that this will be hard: most everyone does everything better than when Belgium does something)

Except moules-frites.

Wrong! (Trappist) beer RROGNNTUDJUU !. Decent moules-frites can be had elsewhere.

[Martinus]

But in such a scenario do it better than Belgium did (not that this will be hard: most everyone does everything better than when Belgium does something)

Except moules-frites.

I miss the Brussels Languish meet. 

[Tamas]

I'm not too sure A-H is a valid comparison, what with it being an absolute monarchy. It's a bit hard to disprove the whole "Despotic Opressors in [insert nation capital]" discourse,  when they are, indeed, Despotic Opressors in [insert nation capital].

Hungary there (after 1867 that is) had wide rights. It wasn't an absolute monarchy in the sense of Austria telling Hungary what is what. This later proved quite problematic for solving long-term challenges that went straight against short term Hungarian interests/fears. For example, IIRC Franz Ferdinand was unpopular in Hungary because he had no intention of leaving that status quo alone once on the throne and hardly made a secret of it. He preferred more centralisation. The other alternative was more federalisation among ALL the nationalities of the empire. But that meant removing Hungarian control over territories of the Kingdom of Hungary. No way you could do that when Hungary was an autonomous half.

So my point is that while federalisation is probably a good idea for the UK if done properly, it is not a guaranteed automatic solution to all ills. It IS possible to screw it up.

[Syt]

[Brazen]

Cameron looks like he's taking a shit on the saltire.

[celedhring]

I'm not too sure A-H is a valid comparison, what with it being an absolute monarchy. It's a bit hard to disprove the whole "Despotic Opressors in [insert nation capital]" discourse,  when they are, indeed, Despotic Opressors in [insert nation capital].

Hungary there (after 1867 that is) had wide rights. It wasn't an absolute monarchy in the sense of Austria telling Hungary what is what. This later proved quite problematic for solving long-term challenges that went straight against short term Hungarian interests/fears. For example, IIRC Franz Ferdinand was unpopular in Hungary because he had no intention of leaving that status quo alone once on the throne and hardly made a secret of it. He preferred more centralisation. The other alternative was more federalisation among ALL the nationalities of the empire. But that meant removing Hungarian control over territories of the Kingdom of Hungary. No way you could do that when Hungary was an autonomous half.

So my point is that while federalisation is probably a good idea for the UK if done properly, it is not a guaranteed automatic solution to all ills. It IS possible to screw it up.

What I mean is, and I believe your example actually supports my point, is that the dynamics of an absolute monarchy (here, Franz Ferdinand wanting more direct power for himself) naturally feed the discontent of subject nations. Also the hardships of a regime that usually doesn't give much of a fuck about his subjects' welfare can easily be pointed towards a "foreign" monarch. 

Federalization is a buzz word, anyway. Spain isn't called a federal country but it's more decentralized than a lot of so-called federations. The devil is in the details.

[Grallon]

So the Scots shied away from their freedom after all...  Disappointing.



G.

[Sheilbh]

Excellent.

Time for a constitutional convention of some sort to work out how to devolve powers to the various components of the UK.

I think the turnout is also great news. I've never believed the accusation that people are apathetic about politics here, the apparent "apathy" is mainly indifference as to which managerialist clone gets to be PM.

As I said earlier, the 2015 GE is going to be pretty exciting, woe betide any politician who is hoping for business as usual; for which, thanks a lot Scotland 

Yeah.

Also I wasn't keen on giving 16 and 17 year olds the vote, but my opinion's changed a bit on that.

[Martinus]

Would be interesting to see how the vote split depending on age, gender and other demographic criteria.

[Zanza]

Would be interesting to see how the vote split depending on age, gender and other demographic criteria.

Without exit polls? Where would you get the data then?

[Sheilbh]

Would be interesting to see how the vote split depending on age, gender and other demographic criteria.

Yeah.

Because it was a referendum, so no previous vote to judge against, there were lots of suggested correlations at the start. As the night went on the presenters were admitting they may not matter - 'we thought high turnout would be good for Yes. It looks like that isn't necessarily the case...We thought social grade would correlate to Yes, but that hasn't happened....'

[Martinus]

Would be interesting to see how the vote split depending on age, gender and other demographic criteria.

Without exit polls? Where would you get the data then?

Fair point. Stupid Scotts.