Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

[Sheilbh]

Yeah in the UK - and I think across Europe - there's been a surge in agricultural vehicles being stolen. From what I've read it is believed that's ultimately going across the black market into Russia for parts, particularly chips.

[Barrister]

I also wouldn't be surprised to see Russia (and, in fairness, Ukraine) try to start using the organised crime networks in their countries and internationally as part of the war policy.

I would be very surprised if this wasn't already being done.

The thing is - I'm not sure that the "organised crime networks" in both Russia and Ukraine aren't the same networks.

[Sheilbh]

I think I read somewhere that after 2014 they did split - there was less and less transnational across the two. In part because in both countries there are overlaps with the state, who made it clear that each other was the enemy and if they wanted a little bit of sufferance from the authorities they needed to reflect that.

So I believe they are generally now very clearly distinct.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

I think I read somewhere that after 2014 they did split - there was less and less transnational across the two. In part because in both countries there are overlaps with the state, who made it clear that each other was the enemy and if they wanted a little bit of sufferance from the authorities they needed to reflect that.

So I believe they are generally now very clearly distinct.

Same happened with a number of groups of hacker-scum (criminals eh) after 2022.

[Josquius]

Apparently there's been another Ukrainian rotation mixup leading to the Russians advancing a few miles.

Things seem really weird at the moment with the Russians really throwing as much meat as possible forward, inevitably gaining territory in places whilst sustaining huge losses.
I guess they see themselves as on a timer to grab as much as they can whenever they can until their man Herr Trump comes to power and orders the American puppet regime to sue for peace with the borders as they are... Giving Russia a few years to get prepared for another go.

[The Brain]

Tying into the discussion about Fascism in the Israel-Palestine thread, my impression is that Putin is not a Fascist. If he has a political ideal that ideal to me seems to be a mix of Imperial Russia and the Soviet Union, neither of which was Fascist.

[frunk]

I think there are three main definitions of Fascist that get used by people, unfortunately without clarification on which is actually meant.  Of course if we did clarify what would we have to talk about?

The first is narrowly tied to the political movement of the first half of the 20th Century.  Using that definition there aren't any Fascist states anymore, the movement having died out with the last of the post WW II dictators.

The second is looking at the methods and practices that the Fascists used to gain and hold on to power, and categorizing parties and states by how closely they adhere to it.  Umberto Eco has a very good list of characteristics that they collectively had.

The third is tarring any far right group with the label, regardless of how it acts. 

To me the first and third definitions don't have much utility in the present day, so I think in terms of the second.  I would say Putin does embrace a lot of the language and methods of Fascism, although it isn't a perfect fit.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJzoIeD5nMw&ab_channel=ProfessorGerdesExplains%F0%9F%87%BA%F0%9F%87%A6

apparantly, but I don't know how credible this guy is, Wagner got hit bigly in Mali...

[Sheilbh]

I think there are three main definitions of Fascist that get used by people, unfortunately without clarification on which is actually meant.  Of course if we did clarify what would we have to talk about?

Also arguably the Marxist tradition? What are the conditions that created fascism/or that fascism emerged from and how that interacts with or creates its features.

To add to Umberto Eco, there's Stanley Payne's list.

I don't think Putin is fascist - but Putin's Russia could become that. I think there's more fascist in Trump (and the GOP think-tank/youth support world) than Putin. Though that could change. I think forces around Putin would definitely like to go in that direction.

Niall Ferguson once asked the question of whether Germany (and the world) would have been better had there been a militarist coup in the early 1920s - when it seemed very possible. The grievances, revanchism, rejections of the post-war/inter-war order would still be present in German politics and quite possibly have led to a war. But possibly of a different nature without the rise of the Nazis by the thirties. It's a slightly discomforting thought - but I basically think Putin's regime is the militarist coup version.

[The Minsky Moment]

I don't think fascism is that mysterious or hard to define, compared to say "liberalism" or "conservatism" All political "isms" have some ambiguity to them.

The subordination of the individual to the state as the expression of the national will, the role of the paramount leader as embodying that national will, the definition of the nation with an ethnic identification, the embrace and glorification of violence as a means of obtaining political goals internally and externally, the rejection of liberal democracy on the one hand and universalist ideologies like communism on the others, the acceptance of market relations and the protection of capital against politically mobilized labor - but combined with the subordination of capital to the state and the elimination of its autonomous political influence. 

As for Putin he did not begin as a fascist, but he has pushed Russia increasingly in that direction over the past 10 years.

[Jacob]

In what way is Putin's regime meaningfully different from the bona fide fascists of the past?

Is it the fact that Russia is still formally a democracy, even if in practice or is not? Or is the some other key difference?

[Razgovory]

In what way is Putin's regime meaningfully different from the bona fide fascists of the past?

Is it the fact that Russia is still formally a democracy, even if in practice or is not? Or is the some other key difference?

Well it isn't totalitarian, and a fascist state encouraged mass participation.  Putin's Russia encourages mass apathy.

[The Brain]

In what way is Putin's regime meaningfully different from the bona fide fascists of the past?

Is it the fact that Russia is still formally a democracy, even if in practice or is not? Or is the some other key difference?

It's not anti-Communist, for one. Putin loves the Soviet Union.

[Josquius]

In what way is Putin's regime meaningfully different from the bona fide fascists of the past?

Is it the fact that Russia is still formally a democracy, even if in practice or is not? Or is the some other key difference?

Well it isn't totalitarian, and a fascist state encouraged mass participation.  Putin's Russia encourages mass apathy.

. It's pretty big on pro state propeganda and stadium events. It's just not very good at it.

[grumbler]

I don't think fascism is that mysterious or hard to define, compared to say "liberalism" or "conservatism" All political "isms" have some ambiguity to them.

The subordination of the individual to the state as the expression of the national will, the role of the paramount leader as embodying that national will, the definition of the nation with an ethnic identification, the embrace and glorification of violence as a means of obtaining political goals internally and externally, the rejection of liberal democracy on the one hand and universalist ideologies like communism on the others, the acceptance of market relations and the protection of capital against politically mobilized labor - but combined with the subordination of capital to the state and the elimination of its autonomous political influence. 

As for Putin he did not begin as a fascist, but he has pushed Russia increasingly in that direction over the past 10 years.

I'd add to that a mythology that idealizes a past that was lost/torn away by enemies but could be reclaimed (Make Italy Great Again!)through fierce struggle with would simultaneously purify and strengthen the national spirit.  OTOH, I don't think that Mussolini's version of fascism had racial/ethnic elements, so I agree with you in keeping them out of the definition.