Tea Party Candidate Says It's OK To Stone Gays To Death

[derspiess]

He explains that in the next sentence.  He is not spiritual so he would be lying if he did.

Attending a church service doesn't require you to profess anything.

Most churches would welcome you even if you disagreed with everything they stood for-- as long as you're not disruptive.

edit: not that we need Ide in *my* church.  The United Methodist Church already leftwing enough as is.

[Ideologue]

I'd be a liar if I attended church services regularly.

Church services are for Christians, specifically the Christianity of the congregation.  It'd be like hanging out in a gay bar to get attention.

I suppose if one accepted the premise that one has to believe in God/be a christian to attend a church service. I don't think I've ever felt like I was lying in my few visits a year to churches.

Of course, there is a difference between regular attendance and attending a couple times to see if it works for you.

Well, I go every Christmas, with my family, which I think is different.  (I don't take communion when I do, which is disrespectful, as I explain to my sister and father, who are not Christians either, every damn year.  My stepmom, the Baptist, gets it.  It's not a hard thing to parse.)

If I went to see if it works, knowing that it wouldn't (I'm convinced in the absence of God--the problem of evil is too strong to resolve) that would be very dishonest and would only be exploiting nice people for their friendship, which itself could be considered false, since they're only being friendly because God wants them to.

[Barrister]

I'd be a liar if I attended church services regularly.  It's not even a matter of Christianity not fitting my spirituality, it's that I am a non-spiritual person.  That said, I feel the absence of spirituality and community.  But I feel that if I went to church it would make me feel worse, not better, and probably just recenter my impression that I'm different from others, which can lead to feelings of deficiency or defectiveness.

[still being serious]

As I said - you don't have to pass some test to prove you believe in God or Jesus.  Hell devout atheists are perfectly welcome even if you announce yourself as such, as are practicing muslims, hindus, jews, etc.

It was just a suggestion.  But if you "feel the absence of spirituality and community" in your life, well the idea of going to Church still sounds like a good one to me to handle both aspects of that problem.

[Barrister]

I'd be a liar if I attended church services regularly.

Church services are for Christians, specifically the Christianity of the congregation.  It'd be like hanging out in a gay bar to get attention.

I suppose if one accepted the premise that one has to believe in God/be a christian to attend a church service. I don't think I've ever felt like I was lying in my few visits a year to churches.

Of course, there is a difference between regular attendance and attending a couple times to see if it works for you.

Well, I go every Christmas, with my family, which I think is different.  (I don't take communion when I do, which is disrespectful, as I explain to my sister and father, who are not Christians either, every damn year.  My stepmom, the Baptist, gets it.  It's not a hard thing to parse.)

If I went to see if it works, knowing that it wouldn't (I'm convinced in the absence of God--the problem of evil is too strong to resolve) that would be very dishonest and would only be exploiting nice people for their friendship, which itself could be considered false, since they're only being friendly because God wants them to.

I'll stop, since I don't mean to have this be a "pile on Ideo" thread, but you're deeply over-thinking this.

[garbon]

If I went to see if it works, knowing that it wouldn't (I'm convinced in the absence of God--the problem of evil is too strong to resolve) that would be very dishonest and would only be exploiting nice people for their friendship, which itself could be considered false, since they're only being friendly because God wants them to.

I don't think that's right (as far as exploitation!) / if anything you are providing them the opportunity for a potential convert.

[Ideologue]

But I'm not.  It would take a lot of reprogramming to actually get me to believe in any kind of higher power.  Even when in an extreme psychological state and I pray or yell at "God," I know on some level I'm talking to the air.

I'll stop, since I don't mean to have this be a "pile on Ideo" thread, but you're deeply over-thinking this.

Well, it's an irresolvable difference of opinions, but I don't find this nearly as offensive as Jake telling me I'm going to somehow turn into a Nazi.

[frunk]

I'll stop, since I don't mean to have this be a "pile on Ideo" thread, but you're deeply over-thinking this.

I agree, for me there's a much simpler reason.  There's no particular reason to go.  I've never felt any pull.  The people are nice, some of the churches/temples are beautiful, but the service itself does nothing either on an intellectual or spiritual level.  Even as an atheist I wouldn't mind going except it's so dull.  At best there might be some good music.

[merithyn]

Still, I'd absolutely love Jake to walk me through the steps to where I become a Christian.  I'd like to know, since believing in God in some capacity probably would make me happier, though I don't seem especially constituted for such belief.

[let me be serious for a second]

H, if you think believing in God would make you happier, try stopping it at a Church some Sunday?  Or a mosque, or temple of one variety or another?  They won't bite, I'm sure even in South Carolina you can find a pretty liberal Church that won't say mean things about gays or blacks.  They also don't make you take any kind of test to determine whether you "believe" or not before entering.

I've been going the last few weeks for the first time in a long time, and I'm surprised how much better, happier even, I feel coming out of a service.  I was mostly going just for the kids benefit, I had thought at first.

http://www.uua.org/directory/congregations/results.php?state=SC

Secular humanism is probably more to Ide's taste.

[Valmy]

http://www.unity.org/

Best religion and best gaming engine at the same time.

[merithyn]

For what it's worth, Ide, my son was/is a staunch atheist. He regularly attends our Unitarian Universalist church, and has even considered being a minister. He still doesn't consider himself very "spiritual", but he is very devoted to secular humanism, and the community fills that need for him, too.

Just something to think about.

[Admiral Yi]

In fairness, I don't necessarily think every Republican is a homophobe and a misogynist and a racist and a rabid capitalist (as well as a xenophobe and a devoutly religious person).

But if they're not at least one of those things, by what metric could they even be described as "right-wing" in the first place?  We'd also have to ask why they would vote for the GOP, if they did--but they don't.

One can believe in a God who disapproves of homosexuals without having an irrational fear of homosexuality.

One can believe immigration should be controlled, that whoever just shows up doesn't get a green card, and that amnesty for people who entered the country illegally (or stayed illegally) is unjust to the people who play by the rules, without having an irrational fear of the other.

One can think think that hiring and admission quotas are unjust to those non-minorities disadvantaged and that abortion is the taking of innocent life without being a misogynist or racist.

And one can think that the private sector is better at creating jobs and providing the goods and services people actually want and need better than the public sector without being a rabid capitalist, though I suppose rabid is not not as narrowly defined as the other terms.

[Maximus]

I agree, for me there's a much simpler reason.  There's no particular reason to go.  I've never felt any pull.  The people are nice, some of the churches/temples are beautiful, but the service itself does nothing either on an intellectual or spiritual level.  Even as an atheist I wouldn't mind going except it's so dull.  At best there might be some good music.

This plus, for me at least, that level of formality and ceremony kind of gives me the heebie-jeebies.

[The Minsky Moment]

One can believe in a God who disapproves of homosexuals without having an irrational fear of homosexuality.

You'd have to define terms pretty carefully for that to be true. 

Belief in a God who disproves of homosexuals is equivalent to believing that the power that constitutes the very nature and structure of the universe has an animus against homosexuality.  That seems pretty equivalent to "fear" unless one is going to quibble about precise meanings.  And such a belief, not being based on any kinds of logical or empirical reasoning process, could fairly be described as irrational.

[Admiral Yi]

You'd have to define terms pretty carefully for that to be true. 

Belief in a God who disproves of homosexuals is equivalent to believing that the power that constitutes the very nature and structure of the universe has an animus against homosexuality.  That seems pretty equivalent to "fear" unless one is going to quibble about precise meanings.  And such a belief, not being based on any kinds of logical or empirical reasoning process, could fairly be described as irrational.

I don't think it's a quibble to object to the term fear.  Jews aren't afraid of shellfish.

A belief not rooted in reason would more accurately be described as arational.

[Barrister]

One can believe in a God who disapproves of homosexuals without having an irrational fear of homosexuality.

You'd have to define terms pretty carefully for that to be true. 

Belief in a God who disproves of homosexuals is equivalent to believing that the power that constitutes the very nature and structure of the universe has an animus against homosexuality.  That seems pretty equivalent to "fear" unless one is going to quibble about precise meanings.  And such a belief, not being based on any kinds of logical or empirical reasoning process, could fairly be described as irrational.

If I were Yi, I would have phrased that as "One can believe in a God who disapproves of homosexual acts without having an irrational fear of homosexuality".

The universality of God's love is the very essence of the Christian faith, after all.