Staind singer stops concert to demand audience members stop ‘molesting’ teen

[Ideologue]

I find it difficult to imagine the kind of monomaniac who harbors only sexual thoughts about somebody and no others.  I don't think crushing on somebody who is either unattainable or you're too afraid to approach directly is healthy--I don't think anyone disagrees on that--but on the other hand you can go too far with judging someone's motivations, which they might not even be completely aware of.  Who puts into motion the kind of diabolical plot you're assuming that has almost no chance of working?  We're talking about normal humans, not Republic serial villains.

Certain corners of the internet seems full of dudes talking about putting that kind of diabolical plot into motion - either because they're frustrated it didn't, because they're crowing that it did, or because they want to figure out different diabolical plot that delivers the result they want.

They seem to use "friendzone" as a non-ironic description in their discourse, and that's how it became tainted with misogyny.

This is correct.

[dps]

Actually, on reflection, I can see the intellectual framework.  Her word choice and focus on fucking and specifically internal cumshots indicates a certain perversity, but we all have our kinks, but there's sort of a defensible idea, if you assume the can opener--that is the threat or perception of the threat of force is inherent in any male-female sexual coupling.

Of course, if you assume that, any male-female relationship is appeasement (and probably prostitution), all male-male relationships must also be based on force, and perhaps all female-female relationships likewise.  It's a pretty nihilistic wordview.  It's also easily disproved by most relationships except employer-employee relationships, which are transactional and leveraged, and not dissimilar to rape when you think about it.

Actually, if you want to look at things in those terms, since no 2 people, even identical twins, are exactly the same, then in every interpersonal relationship 1 person has some degree of a "power" advantage, then all interpersonal relationships are rape.   It's bullshit.  And in applying it to heterosexual sex, it overlooks the fact that while, on average, men have more physical strength than women, not every man is physically stronger than every woman.

[Ideologue]

Well, women exist, right?  So it's not total bullshit.  Q.E.D.

[Valmy]

That's the kind of manichaean viewpoint I was talking about.  Wanting to have sex with somebody but not telling them about it is a lie?  Jesus, I've lied to almost all of the women I've ever met.

No trying to have sex with them while pretending to have totally different intentions is a lie.  Because, you know, it is.  It is not evil or anything, lots of people lie about trying to get sex.  It just generally doesn't work and tends to result in both a doomed conquest attempt and a doomed friendship.  I knew several guys when I was younger where becoming a girls friend was their game.

If you are friends with somebody and later realize you have sexual feelings, or maybe had mixed feelings going in and you have to deal with it now...well that is different but those people rarely complain about being 'friend zoned' they generally worry about the relationship and how their feelings might jeopardize it.

[garbon]

If you are friends with somebody and later realize you have sexual feelings, or maybe had mixed feelings going in and you have to deal with it now...well that is different but those people rarely complain about being 'friend zoned' they generally worry about the relationship and how their feelings might jeopardize it.

[Ideologue]

That's fair.  I was thinking more about the last case.  I've never known anybody that tried to be "just friends" with somebody to get them to have sex with them--as opposed to being friendly to someone they want to have sex with, which seems common sensical--but if you say it exists, I believe you.

Anyway, after reading through it, despite the heavily misogynist bent (I don't really care if "bitch" is a term of art ), The Spice is right about it not being entirely wrong--I think the idea that women desire men with power/status is not that controversial.

I'm curious if there are any feminists who teach away from that aspect of our culture (infer a really awkwardly high-pitched upward inflection on "culture," but feminism does generally deny biological essentialism).  Namely, that part of the reason men lock themselves into potentially destructive hierarchical systems is that it's rewarded, or, at least, seems like the only game in town.  Of course, that's probably as doomed to failure as trying to get men to stop being attracted to younger/fitter/hotter women.

(That said, I think ladder theory and similar systems are flawed in that, like bad economic models, they overemphasize human rationality.  This is especially likely to fail in the sexual market, which is about as close as you can get to a scenario of equal participants, simply because no one entity can accrue more than a millionth's worth of market share for even an hour--and that would take one epic gangbang--but is not populated by rational utility maximizers any more than any other market truly is and is demonstrably even more irrational.

In the end, they're efforts to impose predictability on human behavior in order to delude themselves into believing they have control over their environments and their own fates.  Ultimately, it's possibly not unhealthy in small doses, since the alternative is to recognize the actual meaningless, random, usually horrible state of existence.  However, in large doses, you get doctrinaire idiots who think love, friendship, and tenderness cannot logically exist.)

[Admiral Yi]

I just wanted to say I think this thread is Languish at its best.

[Razgovory]

I just wanted to say I think this thread is Languish at its best.

I would friend zone you so quickly your head would spin.   

Actually I wonder if I accidentally did this to a chick.  Some gal had become friends with some of my friends of mine.  I didn't know her, so I took her out to have some fun and get to know her (as I was the only person in the group that didn't know her, I felt it natural).  She mistook it for desire for romantic relations which I wasn't interested in.  I simply wanted to create a rapport and become friends.  I'm not good at making friends (big fucking surprise), so I guess it's no surprise it didn't work out the way I hoped.

Normally I'm fairly upfront with chicks, which means I get rejected a lot.  It doesn't bother me so much anymore.

[The Brain]

I always fuck on the first date.

[Ed Anger]

I always fuck on the first date.

I'll take you to see Bockscar.

[The Brain]

[merithyn]

Anyway, after reading through it, despite the heavily misogynist bent (I don't really care if "bitch" is a term of art ), The Spice is right about it not being entirely wrong--I think the idea that women desire men with power/status is not that controversial.

Given that women are economically able to care for themselves now - for the first time in, oh, forever - I'm not so sure that's as important as it used to be. I'm also fairly sure that "biology" doesn't play a part.

[Syt]

I always fuck on the first date.

I always fuck up on the first date.

Which isn't as bad as it sounds, because I don't have any first dates, anyways.

[Ideologue]

Anyway, after reading through it, despite the heavily misogynist bent (I don't really care if "bitch" is a term of art ), The Spice is right about it not being entirely wrong--I think the idea that women desire men with power/status is not that controversial.

Given that women are economically able to care for themselves now - for the first time in, oh, forever - I'm not so sure that's as important as it used to be.

How many women are able to independently achieve the kind of lifestyle they want?  If it's as high a percentage as men--which is to say, increasingly few--I wouldn't discount social climbing as a factor.

I'm also fairly sure that "biology" doesn't play a part.

I'm not sure it doesn't play any part, that there are no differences between the mean woman and mean man in this regard.

Although I'll admit my ex-girlfriend standing to inherit about a third of a million dollars in the next ten years didn't make her less attractive.

[OttoVonBismarck]

$300k isn't enough money to even register in terms of making someone more/less attractive.

Nice thread by the way, I had to skip through some boring parts but it had a great mixture of outrage and nonsense and Valmy milquetoastism to really work for me.