Staind singer stops concert to demand audience members stop ‘molesting’ teen

[derspiess]

What's the Ladder Theory?

http://www.laddertheory.com/

Wow, that's a lot of detail.  Some of it is BS, but not all of it.

[Valmy]

Not sure what the shatterimg feeling of being judged unsexy has to do with it. I suspect some guys hang around women hoping that, if they display enough friendly qualities, the woman will eventually have sex with them.

Yep.  Because they are too scared to make a pass so they are playing it safe.

[Jacob]

Ah the old White Knight thingy.  Well he is going to be disappointed, all PIV sex is rape.

What about PIM or PIA?

Think the Feminist covered that:

(or anything else replacing and symbolising the female orifice)

So, like, if a dude is masturbating and he closes his eyes and imagines his fist is really a vagina, that qualifies? That seems a bit out there.

[Valmy]

Wow, that's a lot of detail.  Some of it is BS, but not all of it.

Well yeah.  If it was total BS it would be so long lived and internet famous.

[Ideologue]

Mal: I was describing how it might be easy to come to conclusion that they never had any genuine feelings of friendship in the first place, which I find an unacceptably manichaean view of "sex" and "friendship," respectively.

People are capable of a lot of self-deception, and people are often incapable of maintaining friendships in the event of a rejection like that.  It doesn't mean their intentions were bad or deceitful.  It just means they're cowards; but the world's full of cowards, and isn't likely to be empty of them any time soon.

[Malthus]

Mal: I was describing how it might be easy to come to conclusion that they never had any genuine feelings of friendship in the first place, which I find an unacceptably manichaean view of "sex" and "friendship," respectively.

People are capable of a lot of self-deception, and people are often incapable of maintaining friendships in the event of a rejection like that.  It doesn't mean their intentions were bad or deceitful.  It just means they're cowards; but the world's full of cowards, and isn't likely to be empty of them any time soon.

Fair enough. For myself, I would be very dissapointed if I had a person I thought was a good friend, only to discover that their friendship was conditional on my having sex with them.

[Ideologue]

Though it might be outweighed by sadness and guilt, on some level I'd be flattered and pleased.  But this is because being sexually desired is the only thing I've ever known for sure that I truly wanted.

[Valmy]

Mal: I was describing how it might be easy to come to conclusion that they never had any genuine feelings of friendship in the first place, which I find an unacceptably manichaean view of "sex" and "friendship," respectively.

People are capable of a lot of self-deception, and people are often incapable of maintaining friendships in the event of a rejection like that.  It doesn't mean their intentions were bad or deceitful.  It just means they're cowards; but the world's full of cowards, and isn't likely to be empty of them any time soon.

Fair enough. For myself, I would be very dissapointed if I had a person I thought was a good friend, only to discover that their friendship was conditional on my having sex with them.

Yep.  It is a friendship based on lies.  That is the definition of the 'friendzone' to me.

[Valmy]

So, like, if a dude is masturbating and he closes his eyes and imagines his fist is really a vagina, that qualifies? That seems a bit out there.

Well she gave a definition of rape that has nothing to do with consenting adults since women are incapable of giving consent to being penetrated.  All of it is pretty out there.  She does not really regard men as human beings but rather oppression machines anyway.

[Ideologue]

That's the kind of manichaean viewpoint I was talking about.  Wanting to have sex with somebody but not telling them about it is a lie?  Jesus, I've lied to almost all of the women I've ever met.

[Ideologue]

So, like, if a dude is masturbating and he closes his eyes and imagines his fist is really a vagina, that qualifies? That seems a bit out there.

Well she gave a definition of rape that has nothing to do with consenting adults since women are incapable of giving consent to being penetrated.  All of it is pretty out there.  She does not really regard men as human beings but rather oppression machines anyway.

Like I said, I think it makes a kind of warped sense.  It's essentially the same framework you'd analyze labor-capital relations in--the latter is so powerful that the consent of the former can often not be said to be meaningful.  And, in any event, a body's got to eat--all labor is done under conditions of duress.

Of course, the power relations between a man and a woman are so radically different and so much more radically equitable, it cannot be taken seriously.  (Even if you view human beings as nothing but amoral machines for expressing the basest possible desires, you have to at least take into consideration that each does have the power to grant or withhold things the other wants, which almost universally includes enthusiastic consent.  It's also impossible to square with the obvious fact that women do enjoy having sex and seek it out.  I know it sounds crazy, but I can prove it!)

[HVC]

That's the kind of manichaean viewpoint I was talking about.  Wanting to have sex with somebody but not telling them about it is a lie?  Jesus, I've lied to almost all of the women I've ever met.

its not the lie that makes it wrong, it's the motivation for the friendship. Being a friend only you want sex is dishonest and creepy. Which is different than having a friend who you want to have sex with but don't act on it for, say, fear that'll ruin the friendship.

Girls get friend zoned on equal regularity as men, though, I think. It just follows a different trajectory. Men become friends because they want sex, women are friends first and than want sex somewhere along. Both pine for what they can't have and act dishonestly in hopes of getting sex. If you have a female friend who hates all the girlfriends you've had, you've friend zoned her 

[Ideologue]

I find it difficult to imagine the kind of monomaniac who harbors only sexual thoughts about somebody and no others.  I don't think crushing on somebody who is either unattainable or you're too afraid to approach directly is healthy--I don't think anyone disagrees on that--but on the other hand you can go too far with judging someone's motivations, which they might not even be completely aware of.  Who puts into motion the kind of diabolical plot you're assuming that has almost no chance of working?  We're talking about normal humans, not Republic serial villains.

[Jacob]

I find it difficult to imagine the kind of monomaniac who harbors only sexual thoughts about somebody and no others.  I don't think crushing on somebody who is either unattainable or you're too afraid to approach directly is healthy--I don't think anyone disagrees on that--but on the other hand you can go too far with judging someone's motivations, which they might not even be completely aware of.  Who puts into motion the kind of diabolical plot you're assuming that has almost no chance of working?  We're talking about normal humans, not Republic serial villains.

Certain corners of the internet seems full of dudes talking about putting that kind of diabolical plot into motion - either because they're frustrated it didn't, because they're crowing that it did, or because they want to figure out different diabolical plot that delivers the result they want.

They seem to use "friendzone" as a non-ironic description in their discourse, and that's how it became tainted with misogyny.

[mongers]

That's the kind of manichaean viewpoint I was talking about.  Wanting to have sex with somebody but not telling them about it is a lie?  Jesus, I've lied to almost all of the women I've ever met.

its not the lie that makes it wrong, it's the motivation for the friendship. Being a friend only you want sex is dishonest and creepy. Which is different than having a friend who you want to have sex with but don't act on it for, say, fear that'll ruin the friendship.

Girls get friend zoned on equal regularity as men, though, I think. It just follows a different trajectory. Men become friends because they want sex, women are friends first and than want sex somewhere along. Both pine for what they can't have and act dishonestly in hopes of getting sex. If you have a female friend who hates all the girlfriends you've had, you've friend zoned her

What about not wanting to be friends with a woman, because you don't want to have sex with her?