Am I the only one pissed off by the SNP?

[Sheilbh]

Then where is all this neglect driving them to independence?  This makes it sound like they should have no grievances at all.

It's not really about grievances though. As I say I think it'd be a very amicable divorce.

[Valmy]

Then where is all this neglect driving them to independence?  This makes it sound like they should have no grievances at all.

It's not really about grievances though. As I say I think it'd be a very amicable divorce.

Ok if everybody is so amicable and super happy then why all the accusations of English Arrogance and hostility?  The accusations that they do not care about us?  The language seems nationalistic and confrontational not amicable.

[grumbler]

Then where is all this neglect driving them to independence?  This makes it sound like they should have no grievances at all.

It's not really about grievances though. As I say I think it'd be a very amicable divorce.

Agree.  The Scottish feeling seems to be that the Southeast of England has moved away from being "British" and that, to stay British themselves, Scots need their own country.  I don't think that they have a general feeling of ill-will towards England or the UK, just a feeling that they don't like where the London money is taking the UK.

[Valmy]

Agree.  The Scottish feeling seems to be that the Southeast of England has moved away from being "British" and that, to stay British themselves, Scots need their own country.  I don't think that they have a general feeling of ill-will towards England or the UK, just a feeling that they don't like where the London money is taking the UK.

London and its money are still going to be there having a large influence over everything.  Wouldn't it be better for Scotland to have a say in that?  Polls in Scotland do not indicate that they feel very British though so I am not sure where you are getting this from.

[The Brain]

Do what thou kilt is the whole of the law.

[Sheilbh]

Ok if everybody is so amicable and super happy then why all the accusations of English Arrogance and hostility?  The accusations that they do not care about us?  The language seems nationalistic and confrontational not amicable.

I think you're just a bit sensitive

There's always a base level of anti-Englishness which is inevitable because England is so big. I mean England's one country with 50 million, Scotland's got 5 million and the Welsh have 2.5 million. If you're in Wales or Scotland you're always going to want the English football/rugby team to fail and be annoyed at how self-involved they are. And both the Welsh and the Scots are probably annoyed that the English care far more about beating the French or Germany than them.

In addition to that I think there's a lot of frustration and resentment all over the UK about how London-centric and self-involved our media and politics and economy are. Which is, I think, a fair criticism and one that lots of people in Wales and other bits of England would echo. Alex Salmond referred to London as a 'dark star' of the British economy sucking in resources and people.

But the basic SNP argument is that this is a tryst with destiny and an independent Scotland can decide exactly what sort of country she wants to be in a way that she can't within a union and why shouldn't decisions about Scotland be taken by Scots, elected by Scots in Scotland?

[Valmy]

I think you're just a bit sensitive

What?  You and Tyr were the one complaining and bitching about it.  Now it is no big deal just because I ran with it?

But the basic SNP argument is that this is a tryst with destiny and an independent Scotland can decide exactly what sort of country she wants to be in a way that she can't within a union and why shouldn't decisions about Scotland be taken by Scots, elected by Scots in Scotland?

Except the new Scottish Kingdom will not exist on the moon, there will still be a UK down there making big decisions that have a big impact on Scotland.  To the extent that decisions about Scotland can be taken by Scots this can be achieved by devolution, which is already happening. 

In addition to that I think there's a lot of frustration and resentment all over the UK about how London-centric and self-involved our media and politics and economy are. Which is, I think, a fair criticism and one that lots of people in Wales and other bits of England would echo. Alex Salmond referred to London as a 'dark star' of the British economy sucking in resources and people.

It is a fair criticism but London is not going anywhere and its tremendous impact will still exist.  And besides this is something everybody in every country in the world complain about, though granted few of them have a gorilla quite as enormous as London.  New Scotland will have its Edinburgh after all.  The solution is not to just keep creating more countries until there is no more regional or capital favoritism.

[alfred russel]

What happens if it gets a 51% yes vote? Is that really enough?

I think, at a minimum, scotland should have to prevail in at least one pitched battle with england before becoming free.

There was Stirling Bridge.

Bannockburn was better.

I was thinking to get independence. Those happened before the UK formed.

Braveheart was a good film, but is a bit dated. We need material for a film, and a referendum really isn't so exciting.

[Sheilbh]

What?  You and Tyr were the one complaining and bitching about it.  Now it is no big deal just because I ran with it?

I think most of my bitching has been about the unionist campaign.

Except the new Scottish Kingdom will not exist on the moon, there will still be a UK down there making big decisions that have a big impact on Scotland.  To the extent that decisions about Scotland can be taken by Scots this can be achieved by devolution, which is already happening. 

Nonsense.

First of all this is true of all European countries. England and the UK will still be affected by the decisions of the Eurozone, even if they're not a member. The Polish economy will be affected by the German, and the Belgians by the French, and the Northern Irish by the Republic. That's part of existing and being a country not an argument against it. The difference is if the rest of the UK (and remember Scotland's only 1/12 of it) decide to do one thing then currently Scotland has to go along with that. If they're independent then they can choose their response.

Secondly there are all sorts of things Scotland can't do with devolution. For example they can't vary their tax rates. The SNP are already promising to follow the Irish and have a 12.5% corporate tax, exactly with an eye to poaching business from the City of London (they'd be very well placed to do so if, for example, a rump England then voted to leave the EU while Scotland stayed in or was on the brink of joining). Similarly they've different ideas for personal tax and for welfare reform which they can't do as a devolved government. This is why, though I'm unionist, I support home rule for Scotland.

[Valmy]

I was thinking to get independence. Those happened before the UK formed.

Braveheart was a good film, but is a bit dated. We need material for a film, and a referendum really isn't so exciting.

Well then you probably need something from the Jacobite era.  Prestonpans maybe.

[Valmy]

I think most of my bitching has been about the unionist campaign.

Yes.  Nothing about it sounds very Amicable from either side.

Nonsense.

First of all this is true of all European countries. England and the UK will still be affected by the decisions of the Eurozone, even if they're not a member.

Sure but it is a matter of degrees.  London is a tremendous magnet for talent and money in that part of the world.

The Polish economy will be affected by the German, and the Belgians by the French, and the Northern Irish by the Republic. That's part of existing and being a country not an argument against it.

Of course it is an argument against it.  It is a matter of what is in your best interest.  Poland would benefit from having a say in how Germany does things that impact them, of course.  But it is not the only factor.

The difference is if the rest of the UK (and remember Scotland's only 1/12 of it) decide to do one thing then currently Scotland has to go along with that. If they're independent then they can choose their response.

And that will be true of 1/12th of Scotland when the other 11/12ths want.  Are their ideas on these matters so particular to Scotland that they cannot get support for them from anybody else in the UK?  But they can also choose their response as a government inside the UK.

Secondly there are all sorts of things Scotland can't do with devolution. For example they can't vary their tax rates. The SNP are already promising to follow the Irish and have a 12.5% corporate tax, exactly with an eye to poaching business from the City of London (they'd be very well placed to do so if, for example, a rump England then voted to leave the EU while Scotland stayed in or was on the brink of joining). Similarly they've different ideas for personal tax and for welfare reform which they can't do as a devolved government. This is why, though I'm unionist, I support home rule for Scotland.

Wait wait.  What does this mean?  They cannot do this with home rule but this is why you support home rule?  I guess I had something in mind like an American state government which does have considerable ability to give tax incentives and the like.  I think we already discussed this before and we were agreed that more power to tax needed to be ceded to Wales, NI, and Scotland.  I asked if something like this might be proposed to give incentive for the Scots to stay but from the response that was out of the question for some reason.

[alfred russel]

I was thinking to get independence. Those happened before the UK formed.

Braveheart was a good film, but is a bit dated. We need material for a film, and a referendum really isn't so exciting.

Well then you probably need something from the Jacobite era.  Prestonpans maybe.

But they lost. Maybe a really good director could make it work like Braveheart, where the hero dies, but the movement lives on to eventually triumph.

I'm skeptical though that an effective connection can be made to the Jacobite rebellion and a 21st century referendum. Beyond of course their common thread of stupidity.

[Tamas]

It is funny that I have read two Englishmen here being all "so what" about Scottish independence, while the two Scotts I have talked about it (admittedly both living in England) were rather agitated about how an utterly stupid idea it is

[Valmy]

It is funny that I have read two Englishmen here being all "so what" about Scottish independence, while the two Scotts I have talked about it (admittedly both living in England) were rather agitated about how an utterly stupid idea it is

That reminds me, do the half million or so Scots living in the non-Scotland part of the UK get a say in this?

[Sheilbh]

And that will be true of 1/12th of Scotland when the other 11/12ths want.  Are their ideas on these matters so particular to Scotland that they cannot get support for them from anybody else in the UK?  But they can also choose their response as a government inside the UK.

No they can't. London decides to raise taxes, Scotland must follow. London decides to limit student visas, Scottish universities are hit.

If Scotland were independent they could drop taxes, they could encourage immigration, they could try and be more pro-business than the English and poach the City. Or they could raise taxes even more and build Cuba-on-the-Clyde. Neither of those options are open to Scotland in the Union.

One area where there is a difference in opinion is immigration. The Scots still think it should be reduced, but they're far less excited by it than the English. In England it's always a top 3 priority, whereas in Scotland it tends not to be. The government's policy of cutting immigration to tens of thousands not hundreds of thousands has an effect on Scotland. The SNP are broadly pretty pro-immigration. And immigration is a big driver of Ukip, which I think are an English SNP in some ways.

Wait wait.  What does this mean?  They cannot do this with home rule but this is why you support home rule?  I guess I had something in mind like an American state government which does have considerable ability to give tax incentives and the like.  I think we already discussed this before and we were agreed that more power to tax needed to be ceded to Wales, NI, and Scotland.

They can vary personal income tax up to 3p in the pound from the UK rate, but that's it in terms of tax powers.

The Scottish Parliament has power over, from Wikipedia, 'agriculture, fisheries and forestry, economic development, education, environment, food standards, health, home affairs, Scots law – courts, police and fire services, local government, sport and the arts, transport, training, tourism, research and statistics and social work'.

'Abortion, broadcasting policy, civil service, common markets for UK goods and services, constitution, electricity, coal, oil, gas, nuclear energy, defence and national security, drug policy, employment, foreign policy and relations with Europe, most aspects of transport safety and regulation, National Lottery, protection of borders, social security and stability of UK's fiscal, economic and monetary system' are reserved to Westminster

I actually think this is a problem for Holyrood's system because they basically have a political set-up that's just about how to spend the money they get from Westminster. I also think it's why, outside of the SNP, no front-rank Scottish politician is in Holyrood, they're all in London trying to become cabinet ministers.

The trouble with home rule is if you give the Scots all of those power do you still have Scottish MPs? What areas can they vote on? A government can (and did under the last Labour government) pass measures that only affect England with Scottish MPs even if a majority of English MPs vote against it. We don't have a federal system so it's difficult to work out.

I actually think the big difference in recent years is the rise of English nationalism and a sense of Englishness becoming acceptable.