Encounters with Psychopaths and Sociopaths

[Fate]

I'm unsure how to define a sociopath or psychopath.

I knew one guy, who was the husband of a friend of my mother's, who was a manipulative pathological liar who had absolutely no remorse when caught out - his reaction was, generally, to flee and start up again with a new gf and circle of aquaintances. He was constantly in and out of correctional facilities for small-time fraud; he was very successful with the ladies, in spite of his extreme personal ugliness and criminality - he'd have made a poster boy for the "seduction community". 

However, he never as far as I know committed crimes of violence. More like he was constantly manipulating others, men for money and respect and women for money and sex, and had zero remorse about it, and seemingly no close ties to anyone that meant anything to him. Example: one day a daughter from a previous liason showed up at his (ex) wife's door, to meet her half-brother whom she'd just found out about. When asked if she had met her dad, turned out she had as an adult - when she did, he's gone into some long (totally fictional) sob story about how her mom had done him wrong, the end result of which eventually being that 'dad' scammed the daughter out of her (small) savings she was building up to go to university. 

Was he a sociopath? I have no idea. He was a very bad dude to know, definitely.

He probably had antisocial personality disorder (ASPD.)

Sociopath/psychopath has a more nebulous definition. It's not longer a diagnosis in modern psychiatry but the term persists in pop culture. Classically it was seen as a malignant subset of ASPD. Not all people with ASPD are psychopaths, but all psychopaths have ASPD

[MadImmortalMan]

How many of them are previously-normal people who at some point had some kind of break?

[Queequeg]

It can be brought on by brain damage, and generally speaking a shitty childhood can unlock stuff that's already there in the brain or the genes. 

[Fate]

How many of them are previously-normal people who at some point had some kind of break?

You may be referring to a psychotic break or psychosis - that is a completely different disease process. Psychosis is a spectrum that ranges from a brief psychotic episode (< 1 month of psychosis) to schizophrenia (>6 months of psychosis) in the extreme. It has no relation to antisocial personality disorder or sociopathy/psychopathy.

Psychosis is essentially a loss of contact with reality - be it catatonia, auditory/visual hallucinations, bizarre delusions, etc. It is not generally characterized by violence or willful violation of the rights of others. Individuals with antisocial personality disorder are very much in contact with reality and exhibit the aforementioned behaviors.

You don't go from being completely normal to having ASPD. It's very much the fiber of who you are. This is why it's so resistant to treatment. 3-5% of the general population has ASPD. A past study within the prison population has put the prevalence at around 70%.

[The Brain]

Is it true that we should herd diagnosis people into camps?

[fhdz]

Is it true that we should herd diagnosis people into camps?

That sounds like quite a diagnosis!

[Siege]

Why are there so many posts in thie thread?
This is not an interesting topic.

[Admiral Yi]

That's old world tribalist/socialist/kibutznik thinking Seebrew.

Here in the Land of the Free people can think and talk about whatever they want.

[Malthus]

Why are there so many posts in thie thread?
This is not an interesting topic.

Well, for the rest of us, psychopaths are a bit of a novelty ... 

[LaCroix]

I'll bet you one billion trillion zillion dollars. The disorder is diagnosed by virtue of run ins with the law, lack of respect for social norms, etc. If you aren't getting in trouble with authority you don't have the pathology. You may have antisocial traits (which all humans have, to a varying degree), but you do not have antisocial personality disorder or the most severe variant known as psychopathy/sociopathy.

i found a link that explains the major way (i believe) on how psychopathy is diagnosed, which is the psychopathy checklist revised (PCL-R). it lists 20 traits, and each trait is marked on a 0-2 scale, so 40 points possible. if the person receives a score of 30 or higher they are labeled as a psychopath
   

glibness/superficial charm
    grandiose sense of self worth
    need for stimulation/prone to boredom
    pathological lying
    conning/manipulative
    lack of remorse or guilt
    shallow emotional response
    callous/lack of empathy
    parasitic lifestyle
    poor behavioral controls
    promiscuous sexual behavior
    early behavioral problems
    lack of realistic long term goals
    impulsivity
    irresponsibility
    failure to accept responsibility for their own actions
    many short term relationships
    juvenile delinquency
    revocation of conditional release
    criminal versatility

this list shows that criminal history is a factor considered, but not a requirement of psychopathy. furthermore, checking the wikipedia page shows that one criticism by a peer reviewed paper argues that this list actually places too much emphasis on the criminality of the person

not to mention loads of psychologists that disagree...

http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopathy_in_a_community.pdf

More recent conceptualizations of psychopathy (Hare, 1993) have also
suggested that the syndrome is neither restricted to incarcerated populations
nor to those who engage in criminal acts. Rather, the syndrome may
be found among community groups, even high achievers, such as business-
men, politicians, doctors, lawyers, and university students who, because of
core features such as good social skills, high intelligence, and high socio-
economic status, may have escaped law enforcement agencies or have
taken advantage of others without formally committing illegal acts (Hare,
1993; Zagon & Jackson, 1994).

http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/releases/psychopathy-a-misunderstood-personality-disorder.html

Along with challenging the assumption that psychopathy is a monolithic entity, perhaps the other most important myth that the authors hope to dispel is that psychopathy is synonymous with violence. Skeem points out that psychopathic individuals often have no history of violent behaviour or criminal convictions. "Psychopathy cannot be equated with extreme violence or serial killing. In fact, "psychopaths" do not appear different in kind from other people, or inalterably dangerous," she observes. Nor is it clear that psychopathy predicts violence much better than a past history of violent and other criminal behavior – or general antisocial traits.

i also found this, which notes the psychopath/sociopath is diagnosed but has no criminal record:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201305/confessions-sociopath

so, you are incorrect when you say that a requirement of a psychopathy diagnosis is that the person has a criminal past

no need to pay me one billion trillion zillion dollars

[Fate]

You don't seem to understand that people who avoid getting in trouble with the law and respect social norms aren't going to end up getting a diagnosis of ASPD. There is a difference between a disorder and traits. People with traits are normal. They by definition cannot be the most severe form of ASPD (psychopaths).

We don't diagnose antisocial personality disorder purely via surveys. Surveys may be useful as a screening tool, but this is still a clinical diagnosis.

DSM-IV definition of antisocial personality disorder - i.e. the one used by Western medical science

A) There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three or more of the following:
1. failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
2. deception, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
3. impulsivity or failure to plan ahead; irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults; reckless disregard for safety of self or others
4. consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations
5. lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another
B) The individual is at least age 18 years.
C) There is evidence of conduct disorder with onset before age 15 years.
D) The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of schizophrenia or a manic episode

[garbon]

Looks like only 1 and 3 are somewhat related to illegality. Seems like then someone could get the diagnosis on basis of 2, 4 and 5.

[LaCroix]

Let's stick to psychiatry and medical science. Psychopath is no longer a medical diagnosis accepted by the community at large. In the past has referred to the most severe form of antisocial personality disorder. People with severe ASPD aren't becoming doctors or lawyers. Don't confuse people who may have antisocial traits with those with who have a disorder.

We don't diagnose antisocial personality disorder via surveys. Surveys may be useful as a screening tool, but this is still a clinical diagnosis.

DSM-IV definition of antisocial personality disorder - i.e. the one used by Western medical science

A) There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three or more of the following:
1. failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
2. deception, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
3. impulsivity or failure to plan ahead; irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults; reckless disregard for safety of self or others
4. consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations
5. lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another
B) The individual is at least age 18 years.
C) There is evidence of conduct disorder with onset before age 15 years.
D) The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of schizophrenia or a manic episode

ok

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16756576

Although often used interchangeably, the diagnostic constructs of psychopathy, antisocial personality disorder, and dissocial personality disorder are distinct.
...
For example, research shows that between 50% and 80% of prisoners meet the criteria for a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder, yet only approximately 15% of prisoners would be expected to be psychopathic, as assessed by the PCL-R. As such, the characteristics and research findings drawn from the psychopathy research may not be relevant for those with antisocial or dissocial personality disorder.

also, and this is admittedly nitpicking, "run ins with the law" which you originally said was a requirement of psychopathy is different than "acts that are grounds for arrest"

but we both know the DSM-IV isn't perfect, as it just can't be given the abundant level of research into psychology that occurs every day. they focus so much on the criminal acts because psychologists use prisoners as their main source of research for this issue. that the DSM-IV states someone must have conducted "acts that are grounds for arrest" in their past to be diagnosed with antisocial behavior does not mean there is not someone with antisocial behavior that has committed no "acts that are grounds for arrest" (beyond childhood)

edit: actually, wait. yours says "three or more" .. the list i found on some bullshit website said "must meet all of the following." that makes it easier.

also, why are you using DSM-IV? this is 2014 

http://www.psi.uba.ar/academica/carrerasdegrado/psicologia/sitios_catedras/practicas_profesionales/610_clinica_cuadrosfront_psicosis/material/dsm.pdf

this shows DSM-V's list:

General Criteria for a Personality Disorder

The essential features of a personality disorder are impairments in
personality (self and interpersonal) functioning and the presence of
pathological personality traits. To diagnose a personality disorder,
the following criteria must be met:

A.
Significant impairments in self (identity or self-direction) and
interpersonal (empathy or intimacy) functioning.
B.
One or more pathological personality trait domains or trait facets.
C.
The impairments in personality functioning and
the individual‟s
personality trait expression are relatively stable across time and
consistent across situations.
D.
The impairments in personality functioning and the individual‟s
personality trait expression are not better understood as
normative for the individual‟s developmental stage or sociocultural environment.
E.
The impairments in personality functioning and the individual‟s
personality trait expression are not solely due to the direct
physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse,
medication) or a general medical condition (e.g., severe head
trauma)

Antisocial Personality Disorder
The essential features of a personality disorder are impairments in
personality (self and interpersonal) functioning and the presence of
pathological personality traits. To diagnose antisocial personality
disorder, the following criteria must be met:

A.
Significant impairments in personality functioning manifest by:
1.
Impairments in self functioning (a or b):
a.
Identity: Ego-centrism; self-esteem derived from
personal gain, power, or pleasure.
b.
Self-direction: Goal-setting based on personal
gratification; absence of prosocial internal
standards associated with failure to conform to
lawful or culturally normative ethical behavior.

AND

2. Impairments in interpersonal functioning (a or b):
a.
Empathy: Lack of concern for feelings, needs, or
suffering of others; lack of remorse after hurting or
mistreating another.
b.
Intimacy: Incapacity for mutually intimate
relationships, as exploitation is a primary means of
relating to others, including by deceit and coercion;
use of dominance or intimidation to control others.

B.
Pathological personality traits in the following domains:

1.
Antagonism, characterized by:
a.
Manipulativeness: Frequent use of subterfuge to influence
or control others; use of seduction, charm, glibness,
or ingratiation to achieve one's ends.
b.
Deceitfulness: Dishonesty and fraudulence;
misrepresentation of self; embellishment or
fabrication when relating events.
c.
Callousness: Lack of concern for feelings or
problems of others; lack of guilt or remorse
about the negative or harmful effects of one's
actions on others; aggression; sadism.
d.
Hostility: Persistent or frequent angry feelings;
anger or irritability in response to minor slights and
insults; mean, nasty, or vengeful behavior.

2.
Disinhibition, characterized by:
a.
Irresponsibility: Disregard for and failure to
honor financial and other obligations or commitments;
lack of respect for and lack of follow through on
agreements and promises.
b.
Impulsivity: Acting on the spur of the moment
in response to immediate stimuli; acting on a
momentary basis without a plan or consideration
of outcomes; difficulty establishing and following
plans.
c.
Risk taking: Engagement in dangerous, risky, and
potentially self-damaging activities, unnecessarily
and without regard for consequences; boredom
proneness and thoughtless initiation of activities to
counter boredom; lack of concern for one,,s
limitations and denial of the reality of personal danger

C.
The impairments in personality functioning and the
individual's personality trait expression are relatively stable across time and
consistent across situations.

D.
The impairments in personality functioning and the individual‟s
personality trait expression are not better understood as
normative for the individual's developmental stage or socio-cultural environment.

E.
The impairments in personality functioning and the individual‟s
personality trait expression are not solely due to the direct
physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse,
medication) or a general medical condition (e.g., severe head
trauma).

F.
The individual is at least age 18 years

[Malthus]

I'm unsure how to define a sociopath or psychopath.

I knew one guy, who was the husband of a friend of my mother's, who was a manipulative pathological liar who had absolutely no remorse when caught out - his reaction was, generally, to flee and start up again with a new gf and circle of aquaintances. He was constantly in and out of correctional facilities for small-time fraud; he was very successful with the ladies, in spite of his extreme personal ugliness and criminality - he'd have made a poster boy for the "seduction community". 

However, he never as far as I know committed crimes of violence. More like he was constantly manipulating others, men for money and respect and women for money and sex, and had zero remorse about it, and seemingly no close ties to anyone that meant anything to him. Example: one day a daughter from a previous liason showed up at his (ex) wife's door, to meet her half-brother whom she'd just found out about. When asked if she had met her dad, turned out she had as an adult - when she did, he's gone into some long (totally fictional) sob story about how her mom had done him wrong, the end result of which eventually being that 'dad' scammed the daughter out of her (small) savings she was building up to go to university. 

Was he a sociopath? I have no idea. He was a very bad dude to know, definitely.

He probably had antisocial personality disorder (ASPD.)

Sociopath/psychopath has a more nebulous definition. It's not longer a diagnosis in modern psychiatry but the term persists in pop culture. Classically it was seen as a malignant subset of ASPD. Not all people with ASPD are psychopaths, but all psychopaths have ASPD

Reading the definition you just posted, this guy fit it very well.

1. failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest

- Yup. He was always in the slammer.

2. deception, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure

- Consistent, pathological lying and conning. Mind you, he apparently lied even when he didn't stand to gain.

3. impulsivity or failure to plan ahead; irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults; reckless disregard for safety of self or others

- This one, no. He wasn't into violence.

4. consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations

- Yup. He was a deadbeat. Never worked an honest day in his life, as far as I know.

5. lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another

- And how! He stole the college fund from the kid he abandoned, when she sought him out in some sort of effort to 'connect' with her long-lost dad. Can't think of lower, more rotten behaviour, myself. Didn't phase him in the slightest, apparently.

[LaCroix]

make sure you check my edit, fate. it just doesn't make sense that criminal background would be a requirement to diagnose psychopathy. you know? just think about it