Ukraine's European Revolution?

[The Larch]

EU membership is not a panacea.

It requires a humongous amount of structural changes for a sub-par economy to be able to enjoy the benefits of joining the Union. Larchie might be too young but Celed surely remembers that for a decade the most repeated word in Spanish news was "competitiveness". Those years saw the collapse of most of our mines and heavy industries, with things like textiles falling not far behind. The primary sector also suffered, now being held to strict quotas. In the end Spain had to reinvent the greater part of its economy, and I'm willing to bet the same was true of Poland or the Czechs. The result was, of course, a much more diverse, dynamic and robust economy, but it took time and a lot of sacrifices to get there.

I'm only 2 or 3 years younger than you. 

But yeah, Ukraine's heavy industry is fucked as soon as it eventually joins the EU.

[Admiral Yi]

And their agriculture and mining would be golden.

And their sex tourism.

[Viking]

I thought Cossacks were escaped serfs, i.e. Russians.

My understanding was that being a cossack was more a way of life than a specific ethnicity or language.

Well, both ethnicity and way of life and also neither. The best way to put it was that they were armed groups existing on the lawless russian frontier which were allied to and supported by the russian state and consequently were granted privileges. Serfs were serfs and remained serfs. However the "owners" usually had some time limit to reclaim their serfs (usually 5 years depending on the law at the time). Hiding among the cossacks was a good way to escape serfdom, the other ways were to go hide in the forest which risked capture, and hiding on another estate, which just enserfed you to a different owner.

A 16th century cossack is a very different thing to an 18th century one. Eventually they became a feudal class of their own with serfs and land just like regular russian noblemen. Cossacks were probably an ethnic mix of everybody and their lifestyle depended on the strength of russian control in the region they lived in.

[alfred russel]

EU membership is not a panacea.

It requires a humongous amount of structural changes for a sub-par economy to be able to enjoy the benefits of joining the Union. Larchie might be too young but Celed surely remembers that for a decade the most repeated word in Spanish news was "competitiveness". Those years saw the collapse of most of our mines and heavy industries, with things like textiles falling not far behind. The primary sector also suffered, now being held to strict quotas. In the end Spain had to reinvent the greater part of its economy, and I'm willing to bet the same was true of Poland or the Czechs. The result was, of course, a much more diverse, dynamic and robust economy, but it took time and a lot of sacrifices to get there.

So there was a bit of pain, but now Spain is in the EU, competitive, and awesome.

At least as of 7 or so years ago. I haven't checked recently, but what could change?

[Iormlund]

And their agriculture and mining would be golden.

Their agriculture is pretty inefficient and would be subjected to quotas and EU regulations, so there would have to be some kind of transformation there as well.

They could also experience significant manpower shortages in otherwise competitive sectors (like IT) if talented specialists make use of their EU passport to move abroad.

[Admiral Yi]

Their agriculture is pretty inefficient and would be subjected to quotas and EU regulations, so there would have to be some kind of transformation there as well.

That was pretty much my point.  Application of EU technology, fertilizers, and capital to Ukrainian soil and climate = profit!

As basketball coaches often point out you can't coach height.  Similiarly, you can't learn arable land.

[Iormlund]

EU membership is not a panacea.

It requires a humongous amount of structural changes for a sub-par economy to be able to enjoy the benefits of joining the Union. Larchie might be too young but Celed surely remembers that for a decade the most repeated word in Spanish news was "competitiveness". Those years saw the collapse of most of our mines and heavy industries, with things like textiles falling not far behind. The primary sector also suffered, now being held to strict quotas. In the end Spain had to reinvent the greater part of its economy, and I'm willing to bet the same was true of Poland or the Czechs. The result was, of course, a much more diverse, dynamic and robust economy, but it took time and a lot of sacrifices to get there.

So there was a bit of pain, but now Spain is in the EU, competitive, and awesome.

At least as of 7 or so years ago. I haven't checked recently, but what could change?

It wasn't just a bit of pain. It was a pretty long period with unemployment going as high as 30% without the millions of foreign born we have now (actually two periods, one before accession, one in the early 90s). The Basque country (steel and other heavy industry) and Catalonia (textiles) managed to do just fine in the end, but places like Asturias (coal, steel) or Cádiz (shipyards) never recovered (much like some areas in the north of England).

[alfred russel]

That was pretty much my point.  Application of EU technology, fertilizers, and capital to Ukrainian soil and climate = profit!

As basketball coaches often point out you can't coach height.  Similiarly, you can't learn arable land.

While recently driving through Poland I saw people using animals to move agricultural products on the roads. That is probably a lot rarer than it was a dozen years ago, but I think any Ukrainian transformation is going to take a long long time.

[Queequeg]

EU membership is not a panacea.

It requires a humongous amount of structural changes for a sub-par economy to be able to enjoy the benefits of joining the Union. Larchie might be too young but Celed surely remembers that for a decade the most repeated word in Spanish news was "competitiveness". Those years saw the collapse of most of our mines and heavy industries, with things like textiles falling not far behind. The primary sector also suffered, now being held to strict quotas. In the end Spain had to reinvent the greater part of its economy, and I'm willing to bet the same was true of Poland or the Czechs. The result was, of course, a much more diverse, dynamic and robust economy, but it took time and a lot of sacrifices to get there.

So there was a bit of pain, but now Spain is in the EU, competitive, and awesome.

At least as of 7 or so years ago. I haven't checked recently, but what could change?

It wasn't just a bit of pain. It was a pretty long period with unemployment going as high as 30% without the millions of foreign born we have now (actually two periods, one before accession, one in the early 90s). The Basque country (steel and other heavy industry) and Catalonia (textiles) managed to do just fine in the end, but places like Asturias (coal, steel) or Cádiz (shipyards) never recovered (much like some areas in the north of England).

The Basque Country did well?  I read a book on Basque History that said that the Basque country has suffered relatively in the post-Franco economy because it's dominance in heavy industry is relatively unimportant, but that book (A Basque History of the World) is now 15 years old. 

[Iormlund]

The Basque Country did well?

In time, yes. And some areas were hit worse than others. But at the end of the day their economy is on par with any other in Western Europe.

[Queequeg]

Jesus that's a bizarre people. 

[Richard Hakluyt]

Spain's GDP per capita was about 70% of the EEC average on joining, the gap the Ukraine faces is far more daunting.

[Queequeg]

70%?  Really surprised it was that high. 

[Barrister]

Spain's GDP per capita was about 70% of the EEC average on joining, the gap the Ukraine faces is far more daunting.

Ukraine's net GDP appears to be half that of Romania or Bulgaria, which IIRC are the EU's poorest members.

On the other hand if they could manage to take in Romania and Bulgari, Ukraine isn't that much further a stretch.

[katmai]

Jesus that's a bizarre people.

Fuck you spellus.