Ukraine's European Revolution?

[derspiess]

Gen-X Russophobia.

The cool kids are still doing it.

[crazy canuck]

You're not instinctively hostile to Russian culture, though your insistent belief that Europe is a "thing" that needs protecting rather than some squibbly lines on a map of Eurasia and the outgrowth of a coal-sharing agreement leads you to some conclusions I find problematic.  Minsky is too rational to maintain Boomer or Gen-X Russophobia.

Europe is the outgrowth of a coal-sharing agreement?

[Queequeg]

Europe is the outgrowth of a coal-sharing agreement?

Treaty of Rome.

[crazy canuck]

Europe is the outgrowth of a coal-sharing agreement?

Treaty of Rome.

Europe existed long before the Treaty of Rome

[derspiess]

He's talking about the EU, isn't he?

[Queequeg]

Europe is the outgrowth of a coal-sharing agreement?

Treaty of Rome.

Europe existed long before the Treaty of Rome

"Squiggly lines on a map of Eurasia."  It wasn't a coherent concept until the customs unions of the 20th Century gave it some flesh.  In the Napoleonic period it basically stopped at Ducal Prussia and Silesia, and was really just "Europe that isn't Slavic, except maybe Bohemia, which is dominated by a Germanized Urban population."

[crazy canuck]

He's talking about the EU, isn't he?

Yes, one assumes that by the reference to the Treaty.  But then he goes on about squiggly lines and his underlying assumption that all Eurasians are somehow the same but for those lines and coal.  Odd.

[Queequeg]

I'm not saying all Eurasians are the same.  I'm saying that Europe didn't really mean anything until the Post-War period.  Autocratic Prussia didn't automatically have more in common with Democratic France than with Autocratic Russia just because Charlemagne once took a shit in both countries.   

[Admiral Yi]

You sure Charlemagne took a shit in Prussia?  I don't think his empire went that far east.

[Queequeg]

You sure Charlemagne took a shit in Prussia?  I don't think his empire went that far east.

I was thinking Napoleonic boundaries.  Charlamagne might have visited some of the traditional Hohenzollern territories in Swabia or the Rheinland, though you're right, almost the entirety of Prussia's Brandenburger (?), Pommeranian and Prussian heartland would have been either pagan Slavic or Balt. 

[Queequeg]

My dismissal of Europe as a concept should not be read as a dislike of western Europe, or it's accomplishments or future, or a dislike of the EU as a project.  I just think Europe is grows and contracts given the currently trending ethnic prejudices, and that there's no clear historical boundary between East and West. 

[crazy canuck]

My dismissal of Europe as a concept should not be read as a dislike of western Europe, or it's accomplishments or future, or a dislike of the EU as a project.  I just think Europe is grows and contracts given the currently trending ethnic prejudices, and that there's no clear historical boundary between East and West.

Sure there is.  Everything East of the Rockies is East.  I will let the rest of you sort out your own divisions.

[Barrister]

My dismissal of Europe as a concept should not be read as a dislike of western Europe, or it's accomplishments or future, or a dislike of the EU as a project.  I just think Europe is grows and contracts given the currently trending ethnic prejudices, and that there's no clear historical boundary between East and West.

Sure there is.  Everything East of the Rockies is East.  I will let the rest of you sort out your own divisions.

[crazy canuck]

Roll your eyes all you want but there is no way we share the same region - just ask the ethnic Albertan the next time you see him.

[Sheilbh]

I don't see how this matters though. If I was saying we could finally push Russia out of the Western Empire then maybe it would

There are two arguments, the idealist one is that Europe exists now. As long as it's existed Russia's been hostile at worst and meddlesome at best. Increasing the cost for Europe and allies like the US. The consequences for Russia's friends - Belarus, Serbia, Ukraine, Moldavia haven't been great either.

It is better for the West to help push Russia out of Ukraine. It weakens their hand in countries that are trying to join Europe, like Serbia and Moldavia, or in danger of falling out like Hungary and it makes Belarus even more of a tragic anachronism. An economically united and successful Europe is far more difficult for Russia to mess with, even if there's a non-NATO fringe to respect valid Russian fears. It's more peaceful, free and prosperous than if Russia still has Ukraine.

The Machivellian one is that I think Russia wants a role in the world but is weak. I also think they've overextended (not least due to our acquiescence in the Middle East). I think she will seek that and has a tendency to move from Europe to Asia and vice versa when resisted. If she's not able to operate in Europe - the geographical area, not political concept - then I think she'll turn to Asia. A Russian and Chinese rivalry would have advantages for the West.

From a purely British perspective we had lots of friends in Central Europe when they joined the EU, now we want to reform our terms of membership and we should really have been vocally helping them on this. Unfortunately we seem to be retreating from the world at an alarming pace