American troops may remain in Afghanistan until at least 2024

[Berkut]

My recollection is that the pro intervention side also expressed the hope that the commitment would be made to stay after the initial military action to provide stability.

There may have been an idiot or two who thought it would be a quick operation but that would certainly have been an outlier view.

Plenty of people thought the conventional military part would be quick, and it was.

Few people realized that the non-conventional military part would be as problematic as it turned out - that is the real place to attack people like me in hindsight.

I think everyone thinking about it clearly realized perfectly well that once we went in, we would be in for a time measured in years at best.

[Sheilbh]

Few people realized that the non-conventional military part would be as problematic as it turned out - that is the real place to attack people like me in hindsight.

I think everyone thinking about it clearly realized perfectly well that once we went in, we would be in for a time measured in years at best.

Yeah. I think very few people realised how little thought and planning had gone into the post-invasion side of things.

I think Iorm's line doesn't characterise many of the pro-war posters, but it kind of does describe a lot of 'thinking' that apparently went on in the Administration.

[CountDeMoney]

Dude, we still have troops in Germany, and it's been 68 years now.

When did the German Government ask us to leave?

They were rather adamant about the issue in February 1945.

[mongers]

Few people realized that the non-conventional military part would be as problematic as it turned out - that is the real place to attack people like me in hindsight.

I think everyone thinking about it clearly realized perfectly well that once we went in, we would be in for a time measured in years at best.

Yeah. I think very few people realised how little thought and planning had gone into the post-invasion side of things.

I think Iorm's line doesn't characterise many of the pro-war posters, but it kind of does describe a lot of 'thinking' that apparently went on in the Administration.

I remember being shot down in flames for suggesting an insurgency was starting and that it was a bad idea to summarily disband the army. 

Fairly early on, if one took off the victory blinkers, it was evident that not a lot of thought had gone into the day after and what would work. 

[CountDeMoney]

Maybe we can clone Dostrum.

He's the kind of guy that, if you told him you had a man-crush on him, he'd kill you--and you'd be honored to have died at the hands of such a magnificent man.

[Berkut]

Few people realized that the non-conventional military part would be as problematic as it turned out - that is the real place to attack people like me in hindsight.

I think everyone thinking about it clearly realized perfectly well that once we went in, we would be in for a time measured in years at best.

Yeah. I think very few people realised how little thought and planning had gone into the post-invasion side of things.

I was reserving that observation for when someone did attack me for not realizing how bloody, long, expensive, and generally horrible the counter-insurgency portion would be.

But yeah, the administration seemed to be completely clueless about what would happen AFTER they toppled the government.

I think Iorm's line doesn't characterise many of the pro-war posters, but it kind of does describe a lot of 'thinking' that apparently went on in the Administration.

What is weird about it is that it's not like nobody was talking about what would happen after before - lots of people were, from those saying it would be ungovernable to those saying it would be difficult but very possible, etc., etc.

I mean, I recall plenty of talk about (for example) how Iraq could in theory largely pay for it's own rebuilding with their oil once sanctions were lifted. And lots of debate about that. It's not like there were not lots of people (some of them the very same neo-cons who pushed the war to begin with) talking very seriously about the risks and dangers of the pacification/rebuilding portion of the endeavor.

[Berkut]

Few people realized that the non-conventional military part would be as problematic as it turned out - that is the real place to attack people like me in hindsight.

I think everyone thinking about it clearly realized perfectly well that once we went in, we would be in for a time measured in years at best.

Yeah. I think very few people realised how little thought and planning had gone into the post-invasion side of things.

I think Iorm's line doesn't characterise many of the pro-war posters, but it kind of does describe a lot of 'thinking' that apparently went on in the Administration.

I remember being shot down in flames for suggesting an insurgency was starting and that it was a bad idea to summarily disband the army. 

I don't think it is really fair to put those two ideas together, and then complain about being shot down for them in sum.

"an insurgency is starting" is a pretty bad thing to get shot down over in hindsight.

"disbanding the army is a bad idea" is much more debatable, even in hindsight, and clearly more so at the time.

[Sheilbh]

What is weird about it is that it's not like nobody was talking about what would happen after before - lots of people were, from those saying it would be ungovernable to those saying it would be difficult but very possible, etc., etc.

I mean, I recall plenty of talk about (for example) how Iraq could in theory largely pay for it's own rebuilding with their oil once sanctions were lifted. And lots of debate about that. It's not like there were not lots of people (some of them the very same neo-cons who pushed the war to begin with) talking very seriously about the risks and dangers of the pacification/rebuilding portion of the endeavor.

I think it was because it was so divisive and such a fiercely partisan and ideological issue. I remember reading articles by experts on the region who highlighted the problems of Sunni, Shia and Kurds but then seeing them dismissed as sort-of craven Arabists. It was weirdly Saidian, they were corrupt Orientalists who, with their knowledge, were actually belittling the Iraqis.

I remember some people who highly respected being attacked. It was a very odd moment and almost as if if you raised doubts about anything you were insufficiently convinced, or committed. Because of that you could be safely ignored. Which made the pool of 'acceptable' writers and politicians sadly shallow.

I think Rumsfeld has to carry a lot of responsibility. He was bluff and bullshit masked by an engagingly direct speaking style. And many people were won over.

[CountDeMoney]

"disbanding the army is a bad idea" is much more debatable, even in hindsight, and clearly more so at the time.

Especially when the guy already on the ground, General Garner, had shit under control.

[lustindarkness]

I wish we would go back to destroy and conquer. If it is not worth nuking or conquering an enemy, then let us not get involved at all.

[mongers]

Few people realized that the non-conventional military part would be as problematic as it turned out - that is the real place to attack people like me in hindsight.

I think everyone thinking about it clearly realized perfectly well that once we went in, we would be in for a time measured in years at best.

Yeah. I think very few people realised how little thought and planning had gone into the post-invasion side of things.

I think Iorm's line doesn't characterise many of the pro-war posters, but it kind of does describe a lot of 'thinking' that apparently went on in the Administration.

I remember being shot down in flames for suggesting an insurgency was starting and that it was a bad idea to summarily disband the army. 

I don't think it is really fair to put those two ideas together, and then complain about being shot down for them in sum.

"an insurgency is starting" is a pretty bad thing to get shot down over in hindsight.

"disbanding the army is a bad idea" is much more debatable, even in hindsight, and clearly more so at the time.

Well I wasn't running the two together, There were other stuff I commented on/announced like the start of the Sadr insurrection, I recall CdM didn't buy it.

I think I was fairly clear that offically dismanding the army was a bad idea, especially as officers and some soldiers were demonstrating, some even shot, to rejoin the army and get paid. 

As it is, once disbanded, many of the insurgent ranks were filled by dismissed soldiers. 

And we had to wait 6-7 years for the ace general, to re-employ those insurgents as Sunni awakening council militiamen, a move that greatly affected the efficiency of The Surge. 

[mongers]

I wish we would go back to destroy and conquer. If it is not worth nuking or conquering an enemy, then let us not get involved at all.

Lusty, you've started to advise Obama, haven't you ?

[CountDeMoney]

Well I wasn't running the two together, There were other stuff I commented on/announced like the start of the Sadr insurrection, I recall CdM didn't buy it.

What wasn't I buying?  That the initial insurrection wasn't that big of a deal?  If so, yeah:  because a continuation of low-intensity resistance was to be expected.

Now, when it came to light that Garner had made agreements in good faith with several Iraqi commanders to stay in their barracks and provide security after the fall of Baghdad, only to be fucked over and fired by Bremer when that assclown and the Young Republicans showed up...well, I wasn't present at those briefings, now was I?   

[lustindarkness]

I wish we would go back to destroy and conquer. If it is not worth nuking or conquering an enemy, then let us not get involved at all.

Lusty, you've started to advise Obama, haven't you ?

After I told Bush he should nuke them he left a note to Obama to ignore me.

[Berkut]

"the Young Republicans"

Christ, I remember that. That entire passel of kids whose greatest qualification for going in and running a hostile foreign culture seemed to be Republican ideological purity and naivete. What a fucking mess.