A giant Teutonic brothel - Has liberalization gone too far?

[Eddie Teach]

Well, not that part.

I suspect what happened in Sweden was the paternalist lefties allied with the liberals to decriminalize it and then allied with the conservatives to recriminalize it with the current emphasis on the customers.

[jimmy olsen]

Like I said, I'm with you on moral grounds.  But I just can't see your legal case.

Agreed - I just can't understand the argument being made that given option A (bad) and option B (also bad, and for some definitionally worse than A) somehow removing option A improves the lot of the "victim".

All of Shelf's objections pretty much amount to "The job sucks, and the only people who do it do so because their life sucks". That is

A) Probably not true when you remove the criminal aspect out of the job, and
B) Kind of tautological. Of course if you define a job as being undesirable, the onlyl people who end up doing it tend to be people whose circumstances are such that they can generally only manage undesirable jobs.

Legalizing doesn't seem to remove the criminal aspect from the job though. Trafficking has increased in Germany since legalization and none of the proposed social benefits have come to fruition. It would seem that the policy has completely failed to achieve its aims. Why do you think it will succeed in the future?

[Sheilbh]

Even using your UK stats, there is some % of prostitutes who were NOT abused, NOT "in care," NOT crackheads, etc.  Let's assume for the sake of argument that there is one honest prostitute in Salem.  Would you be for or against her voluntarily plying her trade?

I answered your question. I think it's damaging to society. I think it normalises men buying women for sex. Which has far wider implications. It's a different argument.

But it's also not terribly useful to point to one belle du jour and ignore the vast majority of prostitutes and the general social situation of the women involved.

[Sheilbh]

Well, not that part.

I suspect what happened in Sweden was the paternalist lefties allied with the liberals to decriminalize it and then allied with the conservatives to recriminalize it with the current emphasis on the customers.

Feminists criminalised it - on the men. I am entirely supportive of, in Julian Assange's words, the Saudi Arabia of feminism

[Valmy]

Legalizing doesn't seem to remove the criminal aspect from the job though. Trafficking has increased in Germany since legalization and none of the proposed social benefits have come to fruition. It would seem that the policy has completely failed to achieve its aims. Why do you think it will succeed in the future?

The article does not support this rather extreme position.  In fact it says trafficking may have decreased.  Where are you getting this from?

[Sheilbh]

Um who the fuck doesn't think this?  At least in mainstream society.  Buying the services of a prostitute is pretty fucking stupid thing to do by every measure.

And mainstream society changes. How do you think it would change if men could freely and cheaply buy sex?

As I say this is the society we've come from. It was the norm for men with money to buy sex, I'm not sure we should go back to it.

[Berkut]

Like I said, I'm with you on moral grounds.  But I just can't see your legal case.

Agreed - I just can't understand the argument being made that given option A (bad) and option B (also bad, and for some definitionally worse than A) somehow removing option A improves the lot of the "victim".

All of Shelf's objections pretty much amount to "The job sucks, and the only people who do it do so because their life sucks". That is

A) Probably not true when you remove the criminal aspect out of the job, and
B) Kind of tautological. Of course if you define a job as being undesirable, the onlyl people who end up doing it tend to be people whose circumstances are such that they can generally only manage undesirable jobs.

Legalizing doesn't seem to remove the criminal aspect from the job though. Trafficking has increased in Germany since legalization and none of the proposed social benefits have come to fruition. It would seem that the policy has completely failed to achieve its aims. Why do you think it will succeed in the future?

I don't think either of those conclusions are at all supported by the facts on the ground.

If trafficking has increased, then allocate resources to stop trafficking, which is illegal.

What are these proposed social benefits that have not come to fruition? They seem rather vague and poorly defined.

I think people who don't like prostitution have defined the "aims" such that they can conclude that they have not been reached.

[Admiral Yi]

Um who the fuck doesn't think this?  At least in mainstream society.  Buying the services of a prostitute is pretty fucking stupid thing to do by every measure. 

I don't think this.  I find sticking my dick in a woman much preferable to jerking off.

[CountDeMoney]

Buying the services of a prostitute is pretty fucking stupid thing to do by every measure. 

As opposed to, say, buying the services of a girlfriend or a wife.  But those are OK, since they're services paid for along a much longer timeline.   

[Sheilbh]

The article does not support this rather extreme position.  In fact it says trafficking may have decreased.  Where are you getting this from?

There's two academic studies, one by a German university and one by LSE which both indicate that trafficking increases when prostitution is legalised. Given that 75% of prostitutes in Germany are from abroad and most, not just Eastern Europe, but Romania and Bulgaria (who aren't part of the free movement of labour in the EU) yet would further suggest there's more trafficking than is being caught. Similarly the EU estimates that 23 000 people have been trafficked within the EU, around two-thirds for sexual purposes (lower than the global average estimated by the UN).

Denmark which also legalised prostitution (for self-employed prostitutes) has four times the rate of human trafficking than Sweden.

[Berkut]

Um who the fuck doesn't think this?  At least in mainstream society.  Buying the services of a prostitute is pretty fucking stupid thing to do by every measure.

And mainstream society changes. How do you think it would change if men could freely and cheaply buy sex?

As I say this is the society we've come from. It was the norm for men with money to buy sex, I'm not sure we should go back to it.

I don't think that is a fair comparison though - there were a lot of other things about that society that were very different, especially how it relates to women and their power and control over themselves.

Picking out this one narrow aspect of it, and then pretending like the entire society was defined by THAT aspect, with the implication being that if you allow prostitution then society in general will have to conform to all the OTHER aspects, is a bit disingenuous.

In fact, I would argue that the society you are talking about had vastly more fundamental issues in how it treated women, and their right to make their own choices, and even their view of a woman's own ability to make her own rational choices, as being the true issue to be had with that look into gender roles. And your attitude towards women seems to be much more in line with that fundamental view, that women are not capable of making their own informed choices about their sexuality and what it means to them.

[Sheilbh]

What are these proposed social benefits that have not come to fruition? They seem rather vague and poorly defined.

Legal and employment rights. They weren't poorly defined, they were one of the major purposes of legalisation.

I think people who don't like prostitution have defined the "aims" such that they can conclude that they have not been reached.

Not at all. The trafficking is from two academic studies, neither of which concludes one way or the other on legalisation. This is the conclusion of the LSE report:

The likely negative consequences of legalised prostitution on a country's inflows of human trafficking might be seen to support those who argue in favour of banning prostitution, thereby reducing the flows of trafficking. However, such a line of argumentation overlooks potential benefits that the legalisation of prostitution might have on those employed in the industry. Working conditions could be substantially improved for prostitutes—at least those legally employed—if prostitution is legalised. Prohibiting prostitution also raises tricky "freedom of choice" issues concerning both the potential suppliers and clients of prostitution services.

Similarly the research that indicated that there was no measurable social benefits, improvements in working conditions or drop in crime was prepared the by the Ministry responsible in Berlin. Similarly in the Netherlands the police estimate that 50-90% of prostitutes aren't working as prostitutes voluntarily and find human trafficking a particular factor in that. Which is why the Dutch are planning to de-liberalise prostitution.

[Admiral Yi]

I am skeptical about those trafficking and involuntary estimates.

[Zanza]

The clients are more able to do it, with no social stigma to them

I don't think that's an accurate description of Germany. Maybe I am just prudish and have a prudish social circle, but I would say that it has a very high social stigma. There is no acceptance for it on an individual level, only on a more anonymous societal level.

[Valmy]

The article does not support this rather extreme position.  In fact it says trafficking may have decreased.  Where are you getting this from?

There's two academic studies, one by a German university and one by LSE which both indicate that trafficking increases when prostitution is legalised. Given that 75% of prostitutes in Germany are from abroad and most, not just Eastern Europe, but Romania and Bulgaria (who aren't part of the free movement of labour in the EU) yet would further suggest there's more trafficking than is being caught. Similarly the EU estimates that 23 000 people have been trafficked within the EU, around two-thirds for sexual purposes (lower than the global average estimated by the UN).

Denmark which also legalised prostitution (for self-employed prostitutes) has four times the rate of human trafficking than Sweden.

23000?  A year?  A decade?  Since the creation of the EU in 1993?  We have 17.5 thousand every year.  And we have illegal prostitution.

Hey that is almost exactly the same ratio to population if it is by year isn't it?