A giant Teutonic brothel - Has liberalization gone too far?

[derspiess]

So as you asked me earlier, what's the difference between work and sex work?

Not sure what your question is trying to prove, though.  I can't imagine that one would be denied unemployment insurance because they refused work that would be a health risk and greatly be against their own moral code. 

[Iormlund]

Realistically speaking, the only girls who get into it are either addicts, victims of abuse or trafficking, girls from grinding 3rd world poverty, or some kind of combination of those factors.  Thus it feeds on previous human misery. If it were truly a legitimate choice, I wonder why we don't see more middle-class girls from happy backgrounds going into it...

I sometimes visit the biggest Spanish forum on the Web. A few months ago there was a very interesting thread started by a guy who worked as a bartender in a brothel, where he related his experiences and answered questions.

He said he was surprised by how many girls didn't fit that profile. They would "work" for a few weeks or months then went back to normal life once they had enough money for whatever it is they needed.

[Sheilbh]

Not sure what your question is trying to prove, though.  I can't imagine that one would be denied unemployment insurance because they refused work that would be a health risk and greatly be against their own moral code.

That there's a difference between prostitution and staring at a computer for 8 hours. And then the reasons. Yi's is social stigma and moral objection both of which are kind of external. My view is that sexuality is a fundamental core part of yourself which makes sex work different and fundamentally exploitative.

Negative social stigma, possible moral objections.

Okay. But in the Netherlands for example it's been held that it's part of a PA's job if asked to book a hooker for her boss. How do think the moral objections play there?

[derspiess]

That there's a difference between prostitution and staring at a computer for 8 hours.

There's also a difference between staring at a computer and other legal jobs that are either gross or many/most would find morally objectionable.

And then the reasons. Yi's is social stigma and moral objection both of which are kind of external. My view is that sexuality is a fundamental core part of yourself which makes sex work different and fundamentally exploitative.

Like I said, I'm with you on moral grounds.  But I just can't see your legal case.

[Admiral Yi]

My view is that sexuality is a fundamental core part of yourself which makes sex work different and fundamentally exploitative.

Would it be fair to say you think it's impossible to make an informed, free decision to be a ho?  That any ho who claims to have done so is lying or deluding themself?

Don't understand the fundamental core part thing.  Creativity is a core part, yet people are paid for that.  Intelligence, memory, etc., etc., etc.

[Valmy]

Again I'd use the example of Sweden. The man commits the crime, the woman is offered a range of social support including access to shelters, counselling, education and job training and full information and help claiming on the normal welfare state. There's lots you can do to help the women involved.

Ok so why does she being a prostitute gain her this access?  Why not just go get that stuff and skip the prostitute step?

I'd guess the decline in investment in exit policies in countries that legalise prostitution probably doesn't help. Also the link with addiction is extremely harmful. In the UK most women in prostitution first experienced prostitution before they were 16 and the numbers who came from care suggest that chances are many women didn't have a settled home and may not have finished any education.

Ok but not getting any education and prostituting before 16 has zero to do with legal prostitution, all that is illegal.

If her family paid a lot of money for her to go to Germany or the UK then she may have been trafficked and those people still have some control over her family and she may have to pay off the debt. There's all sorts of reasons.

Yes but I am pretty sure that is all illegal.

It is striking that Germany has a legal sex work market and it needs women from abroad to meet demand, 75% are from abroad. There aren't a great number of German women who've maybe received an education there, live in a relatively rich country, know the benefit system and speak the language fluently who are working as prostitutes. It needs girls who aren't from a wealthy country, don't know the benefit system, don't have a support network and don't necessarily speak the language.

Well the UK has an illegal sex market and seems to do the same.  Heck weren't those Swedish prostitutes Romanians?

This does strike me as an impact of the EU.  All legal prostitutes in the US have to be US citizens or have some sort of permit to work.  Here it seems they can just get Jane Doenescu from Romania and there is nothing the authorities can do about that.

[Eddie Teach]

Like I said, I'm with you on moral grounds.

Are you really? You think the john is committing a sin but the prostitute is an innocent victim?

[Sheilbh]

Like I said, I'm with you on moral grounds.  But I just can't see your legal case.

I think the current situation doesn't work. I think the evidence from countries that have legalised prostitution is that that doesn't work. There's increased trafficking, no measurable improvements in social or working conditions of the women involved, and no drop in crime. The only benefits seem to be for the exploiters. The clients are more able to do it, with no social stigma to them, and there's been a drop in prices. Similarly brothels and pimps are safer from raids.

Given that, as well as moral grounds, I think Sweden offers a better a model. Stigma is attached to the men, not the women. The crime isn't selling but purchasing sex. There's been a decline in prostitution. There's a robust system of help for women who want to leave prostitution. And there is a lower rate of trafficking in Sweden than elsewhere.

I don't agree with prostitution, but I also think there's a very practical case that the Swedish system works better.

[Valmy]

No. I think it is damaging to society. The 18th century model, or even Germany were apparently around 20% of men have bought a woman for their sexual purposes, I think is a problem for how we as a society value women.

It's a different, wider set of issues if most prostitutes are in the belle du jour model though.

Well there is a demand for sex.  A demand people are willing to pay for to be filled.  Are you suggesting if we somehow valued women more there would be no demand because...I don't know....sex drives are only a result of not valuing people?

I suppose maybe if we stopped this culture of rape and slut shaming women would just have sex with all men all the time for free.  But that is kind of a conjecture.

[derspiess]

Like I said, I'm with you on moral grounds.

Are you really? You think the john is committing a sin but the prostitute is an innocent victim?

Well, not that part.

[Sheilbh]

Would it be fair to say you think it's impossible to make an informed, free decision to be a ho? 

Broadly yeah. I wouldn't say lying or deluding themselves but it is largely an industry that exists selling women who are in the least position to choose for men. I'm not convinced there's any more choice in 'choosing prostitution' than, say, 'choosing poverty'.

Well the UK has an illegal sex market and seems to do the same.  Heck weren't those Swedish prostitutes Romanians?

Trafficking exists everywhere and I think the UN did a study globally and estimated that about 80% of it is for sexual purposes. No doubt chances are that even though it's bad in the UK or Germany it's still better than other places.

As I say there's an article here:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/human-trafficking-persists-despite-legality-of-prostitution-in-germany-a-902533.html

And of course as I said the problem is where it's legal it'll become more normal, back to the 18th century. Why would a man wank when he can go to a flat rate brothel or get a blow job for €10?

Ok so why does she being a prostitute gain her this access?  Why not just go get that stuff and skip the prostitute step?

Because she's particularly vulnerable.

[Sheilbh]

Well there is a demand for sex.  A demand people are willing to pay for to be filled.  Are you suggesting if we somehow valued women more there would be no demand because...I don't know....sex drives are only a result of not valuing people?

I think if we valued women more we'd probably think a man have to masturbate isn't that bad and it's certainly better than him being able to buy a woman to use.

Edit: I suppose I don't see sex as a human right

I suppose maybe if we stopped this culture of rape and slut shaming women would just have sex with all men all the time for free.  But that is kind of a conjecture.

But again this puts men's sexual needs first as some sort of desperate priority.

[Admiral Yi]

Would it be fair to say you think it's impossible to make an informed, free decision to be a ho? 

Broadly yeah. I wouldn't say lying or deluding themselves but it is largely an industry that exists selling women who are in the least position to choose for men. I'm not convinced there's any more choice in 'choosing prostitution' than, say, 'choosing poverty'.

You are answering my hypothetical question with an answer about tendencies and generalities. 

Even using your UK stats, there is some % of prostitutes who were NOT abused, NOT "in care," NOT crackheads, etc.  Let's assume for the sake of argument that there is one honest prostitute in Salem.  Would you be for or against her voluntarily plying her trade?

[Berkut]

Like I said, I'm with you on moral grounds.  But I just can't see your legal case.

Agreed - I just can't understand the argument being made that given option A (bad) and option B (also bad, and for some definitionally worse than A) somehow removing option A improves the lot of the "victim".

All of Shelf's objections pretty much amount to "The job sucks, and the only people who do it do so because their life sucks". That is

A) Probably not true when you remove the criminal aspect out of the job, and
B) Kind of tautological. Of course if you define a job as being undesirable, the onlyl people who end up doing it tend to be people whose circumstances are such that they can generally only manage undesirable jobs.

[Valmy]

Well there is a demand for sex.  A demand people are willing to pay for to be filled.  Are you suggesting if we somehow valued women more there would be no demand because...I don't know....sex drives are only a result of not valuing people?

I think if we valued women more we'd probably think a man have to masturbate isn't that bad and it's certainly better than him being able to buy a woman to use.

Um who the fuck doesn't think this?  At least in mainstream society.  Buying the services of a prostitute is pretty fucking stupid thing to do by every measure. 

Edit: I suppose I don't see sex as a human right

I wasn't either I was talking about the demand that creates the supply, I was not talking about human rights.  I never even hinted at human rights...so....

I suppose maybe if we stopped this culture of rape and slut shaming women would just have sex with all men all the time for free.  But that is kind of a conjecture.

But again this puts men's sexual needs first as some sort of desperate priority.

What puts what first now?  I was just theorizing what would stop the demand for sex, obviously kidding a bit.  I do not view men's sexual needs as any sort of priority for anybody but the man himself.  The only concern of society is the impact of those sexual needs.  You know: babies and diseases and all that.  What does that have to do with what we are talking about?