A giant Teutonic brothel - Has liberalization gone too far?

[Sheilbh]

Err, still, at the end of the day, if it is a legal business, she can decide to either service Creppy John, or not. Yes, if she does not service him, her income for the month will be lower (duh), but the choice is free and entirely hers.

Unless she signs an employment contract where it's legal to access he rights to benefits and legal protection of workers. But then she's hardly in a position to refuse or she'll have broken her contract and could lose her job.

And if you look at the background the overwhelming majority of women working in prostitution are coming from, I'm not sure we should be so casually talking about 'free and entirely her' choice.

Now if it is illegal, than the situation is entirely different. She does not have the protection of the law from either creepy john, or her pimp.

That's why you make it illegal to buy sex. Again I'd point to the Swedish example which has seen 40 prostitutes, mainly from Romania, testifying against their pimps and clients because they're safe. They're not the criminals but the victims of a crime.

[Eddie Teach]

Do most victims of a crime typically come out of it several hundred dollars richer?

[Valmy]

Unless she signs an employment contract where it's legal to access he rights to benefits and legal protection of workers. But then she's hardly in a position to refuse or she'll have broken her contract and could lose her job.

Ok if she has zero options besides being a prostitute and she is not in a position to refuse for fear of whatever desperate state not being a prostitute is going to put her in, how is making the one profession she must do to survive illegal going to help her? 

I guess I don't get it, why is this the only job in the entire nation of Germany she must do?  She cannot just go live on welfare or take a job scrubbing toilets or selling drugs or something?  Presuming we are talking about a legal EU citizen able to work and sign contracts in Germany.

[Sheilbh]

Yeah but Prostitution is illegal in the UK isn't it?  You would expect stats like that in a black market setting. In the US we only have a few Nevada counties where it is legal but I do not know the stats on their poverty and abuse and all that, the population we are talking here is very small anyway.  I would be interested to see stats in Germany regarding their legal government protected prostitutes.

Yeah. There are separate studies from the LSE and a German university that both say legalised prostitution increases human trafficking. So there's that and apparently around 75% of German prostitutes are from abroad, mainly from poorer European countries.

In terms of the purposes of legalisation, it's failed. According to Der Spiegel the Family Ministry said it hadn't brought about any measurable improvement in the social coverage of prostitutes. The working conditions and ability exit prostitution hadn't improved. There's no 'solid proof to date' that the law had reduced crime. And apparently there are almost no cases of prostitutes suing for their wages.

Another side effect is that Germany is a sex tourism destination now and, with the EU, there's an easy access to pools of cheap labour. Apparently the price of prostitution in Germany is low and falling. Again I think that indicates problems with how the law works in terms of the women involved.

It seems to me that this legal approach would benefit pimps and brothels - no raids - far more than prostitutes, especially when compared to Sweden.

[Valmy]

It seems to me that this legal approach would benefit pimps and brothels - no raids - far more than prostitutes, especially when compared to Sweden.

Well how do they benefit in Sweden without any legal clients?  So...it is great to be prostitute in Sweden, sure you will not make any money but beyond that it is awesome?

Yeah. There are separate studies from the LSE and a German university that both say legalised prostitution increases human trafficking. So there's that and apparently around 75% of German prostitutes are from abroad, mainly from poorer European countries.

In terms of the purposes of legalisation, it's failed. According to Der Spiegel the Family Ministry said it hadn't brought about any measurable improvement in the social coverage of prostitutes. The working conditions and ability exit prostitution hadn't improved. There's no 'solid proof to date' that the law had reduced crime. And apparently there are almost no cases of prostitutes suing for their wages.

Another side effect is that Germany is a sex tourism destination now and, with the EU, there's an easy access to pools of cheap labour. Apparently the price of prostitution in Germany is low and falling. Again I think that indicates problems with how the law works in terms of the women involved.

That seems like not impossible problem to fix.  Why not make it only legal for German citizens?  Also it seems weird that providing benefits and workers protection for people gives them exactly zero advantages of any sort.

[Tamas]

It seems to me that this legal approach would benefit pimps and brothels - no raids - far more than prostitutes, especially when compared to Sweden.

Careful, now you are saying it is fine to illegalize something so that the people doing it could earn more. 

I can`t possibly see how your views on prostitution being unethical match with your apparent disapproval of legal prostitution becoming cheaper.

[Admiral Yi]

Another side effect is that Germany is a sex tourism destination now and, with the EU, there's an easy access to pools of cheap labour. Apparently the price of prostitution in Germany is low and falling. Again I think that indicates problems with how the law works in terms of the women involved.

This seems to be a case of the EU labor mobility laws working.

[Sheilbh]

Ok if she has zero options besides being a prostitute and she is not in a position to refuse for fear of whatever desperate state not being a prostitute is going to put her in, how is making the one profession she must do to survive illegal going to help her? 

Again I'd use the example of Sweden. The man commits the crime, the woman is offered a range of social support including access to shelters, counselling, education and job training and full information and help claiming on the normal welfare state. There's lots you can do to help the women involved.

I guess I don't get it, why is this the only job in the entire nation of Germany she must do?  She cannot just go live on welfare or take a job scrubbing toilets or selling drugs or something?  Presuming we are talking about a legal EU citizen able to work and sign contracts in Germany.

I'd guess the decline in investment in exit policies in countries that legalise prostitution probably doesn't help. Also the link with addiction is extremely harmful. In the UK most women in prostitution first experienced prostitution before they were 16 and the numbers who came from care suggest that chances are many women didn't have a settled home and may not have finished any education.

If her family paid a lot of money for her to go to Germany or the UK then she may have been trafficked and those people still have some control over her family and she may have to pay off the debt. There's all sorts of reasons.

It is striking that Germany has a legal sex work market and it needs women from abroad to meet demand, 75% are from abroad. There aren't a great number of German women who've maybe received an education there, live in a relatively rich country, know the benefit system and speak the language fluently who are working as prostitutes. It needs girls who aren't from a wealthy country, don't know the benefit system, don't have a support network and don't necessarily speak the language.

This seems to be a case of the EU labor mobility laws working.

They're mostly from Eastern Europe that doesn't generally have access to Germany's labour market.

[Sheilbh]

Well how do they benefit in Sweden without any legal clients?  So...it is great to be prostitute in Sweden, sure you will not make any money but beyond that it is awesome?

I think it helps if you don't see them as prostitutes, destined to prostitute

Prostitution has declined and women have been able to leave. That's the benefit.

That seems like not impossible problem to fix.  Why not make it only legal for German citizens?  Also it seems weird that providing benefits and workers protection for people gives them exactly zero advantages of any sort.

You have to sign up for the welfare state. You need to regularise your status. So far less than 1% of prostitutes have and as I say almost none have ever sued their 'employers' for wages that they didn't receive.

Careful, now you are saying it is fine to illegalize something so that the people doing it could earn more. 

I can`t possibly see how your views on prostitution being unethical match with your apparent disapproval of legal prostitution becoming cheaper.

I don't understand what you're getting at here. I don't understand the point, sorry.

Edit: Here's the Der Spiegel article on it, which is interesting though not stats heavy:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/human-trafficking-persists-despite-legality-of-prostitution-in-germany-a-902533.html

[Admiral Yi]

What does "in care" mean?

[Sheilbh]

This seems to be a case of the EU labor mobility laws working.

Incidentally as you're talking about the labour aspect again, you didn't answer, would you be comfortable refusing benefits to someone who refused to take an available job as a prostitute?

[Sheilbh]

What does "in care" mean?

They've been put in the care system. Kids who've been taken away from their parents for however long.

[Admiral Yi]

Incidentally as you're talking about the labour aspect again, you didn't answer, would you be comfortable refusing benefits to someone who refused to take an available job as a prostitute?

I would not be comfortable declining unemployment insurance to someone who refused a job as a prostitute.

Does your objection to the industry disappear for prostitutes who are not emotional and psychological cripples or victims of trafficking?

[Sheilbh]

I would not be comfortable declining unemployment insurance to someone who refused a job as a prostitute.

So as you asked me earlier, what's the difference between work and sex work?

Does your objection to the industry disappear for prostitutes who are not emotional and psychological cripples or victims of trafficking?

No. I think it is damaging to society. The 18th century model, or even Germany were apparently around 20% of men have bought a woman for their sexual purposes, I think is a problem for how we as a society value women.

It's a different, wider set of issues if most prostitutes are in the belle du jour model though.

[Admiral Yi]

So as you asked me earlier, what's the difference between work and sex work?

Negative social stigma, possible moral objections.