Pope on gays : "Who am I to judge?"

[Viking]

OK

1. On which issue was Moses open for doubt?
2. On which theological issue was the Church or any Pope open for doubt?

What does baffle me a bit is how monumentally free of content the ramblings of this pope are. If you can't go to the church for truth then, to paraphrase stephen fry, what are they for? When did the pope become a post modern lutheran? (well not quite a lutheran sine he doesn't harp on about the bible interminably)

As for Sheilbh's Heirarchy of Truth. It is BS. It is BS for the simple reason that you can only discover after the fact where in this  Heirachy of Truth a dogma or a doctrine or a teaching resides. Basically, they get pushed down as reality proves them wrong.

[Sheilbh]

I'm on my phone, but again the anti-theist and hard-core fundy (in this case radical traditionalist) view is virtually indistinguishable 

[Tamas]

Basically, they get pushed down as reality proves them wrong.

That is the key in the whole argument.

[Viking]

I'm on my phone, but again the anti-theist and hard-core fundy (in this case radical traditionalist) view is virtually indistinguishable 

That's because we treat the subject matter with respect and take it seriously. There are millions of people who have killed and died over the centuries for the truths of the catholic church. They have done this at it's command and as a consequence of its teaching. And now The Pope is acting like The Dude? If the church is going to pretend to be able to have anything to say about modern life they need to explain how and why the were wrong about witches, crusades and christ killers and explain why they are not wrong now. They still claim the same epistemology (how you know what you know) which justified their earlier crimes now justifies their present niceness. It's not their niceness (which is a big improvement) that is the issue, it is their epistemology.

[grumbler]

As for Sheilbh's Heirarchy of Truth. It is BS. It is BS for the simple reason that you can only discover after the fact where in this  Heirachy of Truth a dogma or a doctrine or a teaching resides.

The mis-spelling aside, could you link me to Sheilbh's "Hierarchy of Truth"?  I am not familiar with it, and if it is going to be a subject of debate here, I'd like to read up on it.

[Neil]

Well I can only repeat the previous posts in this thread: if he is speaking otherwise than previous Popes, while Popes have like the hotline to God than either:

a) this Pope is false, and since this could happen, Catholicism is fake
b) the anti-gay Popes were false,  and since this could happen, Catholicism is fake
c) they have no clue what God`s intentions are, so Catholicism is fake

Are you some kind of fucking retard?  Of course religion isn't really true.  But that doesn't much matter, does it?

[Viking]

As for Sheilbh's Heirarchy of Truth. It is BS. It is BS for the simple reason that you can only discover after the fact where in this  Heirachy of Truth a dogma or a doctrine or a teaching resides.

The mis-spelling aside, could you link me to Sheilbh's "Hierarchy of Truth"?  I am not familiar with it, and if it is going to be a subject of debate here, I'd like to read up on it.

thats the one where gheys and atheists aren't evil anymore.. it's a new kind of teaching with a new hierachy of symbolic, anecdotal and literal truths. It's just a new kind of claim to truth and knowledge with the same old fucked up epistemology.

[Tamas]

Well I can only repeat the previous posts in this thread: if he is speaking otherwise than previous Popes, while Popes have like the hotline to God than either:

a) this Pope is false, and since this could happen, Catholicism is fake
b) the anti-gay Popes were false,  and since this could happen, Catholicism is fake
c) they have no clue what God`s intentions are, so Catholicism is fake

Are you some kind of fucking retard?  Of course religion isn't really true.  But that doesn't much matter, does it?

Depends.

[merithyn]

If you can't go to the church for truth then, to paraphrase stephen fry, what are they for?

Guidance. That's all they've ever been for. No one has the absolute Truth(tm). But the church offers guidance on how to live in a way that's compatible with god's word.

[merithyn]

thats the one where gheys and atheists aren't evil anymore.. it's a new kind of teaching with a new hierachy of symbolic, anecdotal and literal truths. It's just a new kind of claim to truth and knowledge with the same old fucked up epistemology.

Are you talking about the pope's interview where he said that we need to focus more on charity and acceptance than on judgement?

[Tamas]

If you can't go to the church for truth then, to paraphrase stephen fry, what are they for?

Guidance. That's all they've ever been for. No one has the absolute Truth(tm).

*paging 1500 years of history*

[garbon]

I'm not sure why Viking and Tamas are making such a fuss.

[Tamas]

I mean seriously, Merri. I am (now) trying to avoid attacking individuals in their religion, because if somebody thinks he/she is a better person from believing in one of the deities, I am cool with that.

But how can you honestly say that the Church never claimed to be in possession of the absolute truth? I am not speaking about theories and books written about their philosophic monks, I am speaking about actual practical actions and rules taken and advocated by the Church throughout history.

[HVC]

I'm not sure why Viking and Tamas are making such a fuss.

religion is one if the few things its still ok to be bigoted about (on either side)

[Viking]

thats the one where gheys and atheists aren't evil anymore.. it's a new kind of teaching with a new hierachy of symbolic, anecdotal and literal truths. It's just a new kind of claim to truth and knowledge with the same old fucked up epistemology.

Are you talking about the pope's interview where he said that we need to focus more on charity and acceptance than on judgement?

No, I was talking about shelf's imagined new catholicism.

My issue with the popes interview is this..

Spadaro asks Francis what it means to "think with the church," in the words of St. Ignatius. At this, Francis launches into a discussion of infallibility. "All the faithful, considered as a whole, are infallible in matters of belief," he argues. "When the dialogue among the people and the bishops and the pope goes down this road and is genuine, then it is assisted by the Holy Spirit. ... We should not even think, therefore, that 'thinking with the church' means only thinking with the hierarchy of the church."

thats not catholic, thats islamic kalaam. In effect changing the catholic church from being the worldly manefestation of the holy spirit to being the same as the islamic ummah. Thinking with the church mainly renders the church itself irrellevant and makes any Hutton Gibson wannabe as good as the pope. I'm sorry, but you don't get to change the central organizing principle of your church and still call yourself pope.