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Pope on gays : "Who am I to judge?"

Started by garbon, July 29, 2013, 08:09:20 AM

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Viking

OK

1. On which issue was Moses open for doubt?
2. On which theological issue was the Church or any Pope open for doubt?

What does baffle me a bit is how monumentally free of content the ramblings of this pope are. If you can't go to the church for truth then, to paraphrase stephen fry, what are they for? When did the pope become a post modern lutheran? (well not quite a lutheran sine he doesn't harp on about the bible interminably)

As for Sheilbh's Heirarchy of Truth. It is BS. It is BS for the simple reason that you can only discover after the fact where in this  Heirachy of Truth a dogma or a doctrine or a teaching resides. Basically, they get pushed down as reality proves them wrong.
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

Sheilbh

I'm on my phone, but again the anti-theist and hard-core fundy (in this case radical traditionalist) view is virtually indistinguishable  :lol:
Let's bomb Russia!

Tamas

Quote from: Viking on September 20, 2013, 02:40:03 AM
Basically, they get pushed down as reality proves them wrong.

:yes: That is the key in the whole argument.

Viking

Quote from: Sheilbh on September 20, 2013, 03:02:35 AM
I'm on my phone, but again the anti-theist and hard-core fundy (in this case radical traditionalist) view is virtually indistinguishable  :lol:

That's because we treat the subject matter with respect and take it seriously. There are millions of people who have killed and died over the centuries for the truths of the catholic church. They have done this at it's command and as a consequence of its teaching. And now The Pope is acting like The Dude? If the church is going to pretend to be able to have anything to say about modern life they need to explain how and why the were wrong about witches, crusades and christ killers and explain why they are not wrong now. They still claim the same epistemology (how you know what you know) which justified their earlier crimes now justifies their present niceness. It's not their niceness (which is a big improvement) that is the issue, it is their epistemology.
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

grumbler

Quote from: Viking on September 20, 2013, 02:40:03 AM
As for Sheilbh's Heirarchy of Truth. It is BS. It is BS for the simple reason that you can only discover after the fact where in this  Heirachy of Truth a dogma or a doctrine or a teaching resides.

The mis-spelling aside, could you link me to Sheilbh's "Hierarchy of Truth"?  I am not familiar with it, and if it is going to be a subject of debate here, I'd like to read up on it.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Neil

Quote from: Tamas on September 19, 2013, 10:35:22 AM
Well I can only repeat the previous posts in this thread: if he is speaking otherwise than previous Popes, while Popes have like the hotline to God than either:

a) this Pope is false, and since this could happen, Catholicism is fake
b) the anti-gay Popes were false,  and since this could happen, Catholicism is fake
c) they have no clue what God`s intentions are, so Catholicism is fake
Are you some kind of fucking retard?  Of course religion isn't really true.  But that doesn't much matter, does it?
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.

Viking

Quote from: grumbler on September 20, 2013, 06:33:42 AM
Quote from: Viking on September 20, 2013, 02:40:03 AM
As for Sheilbh's Heirarchy of Truth. It is BS. It is BS for the simple reason that you can only discover after the fact where in this  Heirachy of Truth a dogma or a doctrine or a teaching resides.

The mis-spelling aside, could you link me to Sheilbh's "Hierarchy of Truth"?  I am not familiar with it, and if it is going to be a subject of debate here, I'd like to read up on it.

thats the one where gheys and atheists aren't evil anymore.. it's a new kind of teaching with a new hierachy of symbolic, anecdotal and literal truths. It's just a new kind of claim to truth and knowledge with the same old fucked up epistemology.
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

Tamas

Quote from: Neil on September 20, 2013, 07:58:17 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 19, 2013, 10:35:22 AM
Well I can only repeat the previous posts in this thread: if he is speaking otherwise than previous Popes, while Popes have like the hotline to God than either:

a) this Pope is false, and since this could happen, Catholicism is fake
b) the anti-gay Popes were false,  and since this could happen, Catholicism is fake
c) they have no clue what God`s intentions are, so Catholicism is fake
Are you some kind of fucking retard?  Of course religion isn't really true.  But that doesn't much matter, does it?

Depends.

merithyn

Quote from: Viking on September 20, 2013, 02:40:03 AM
If you can't go to the church for truth then, to paraphrase stephen fry, what are they for?

:huh:

Guidance. That's all they've ever been for. No one has the absolute Truth(tm). But the church offers guidance on how to live in a way that's compatible with god's word.
Yesterday, upon the stair,
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish, I wish he'd go away...

merithyn

Quote from: Viking on September 20, 2013, 08:01:34 AM

thats the one where gheys and atheists aren't evil anymore.. it's a new kind of teaching with a new hierachy of symbolic, anecdotal and literal truths. It's just a new kind of claim to truth and knowledge with the same old fucked up epistemology.

Are you talking about the pope's interview where he said that we need to focus more on charity and acceptance than on judgement?
Yesterday, upon the stair,
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish, I wish he'd go away...

Tamas

Quote from: merithyn on September 20, 2013, 08:20:41 AM
Quote from: Viking on September 20, 2013, 02:40:03 AM
If you can't go to the church for truth then, to paraphrase stephen fry, what are they for?

:huh:

Guidance. That's all they've ever been for. No one has the absolute Truth(tm).

*paging 1500 years of history*

garbon

I'm not sure why Viking and Tamas are making such a fuss.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Tamas

I mean seriously, Merri. I am (now) trying to avoid attacking individuals in their religion, because if somebody thinks he/she is a better person from believing in one of the deities, I am cool with that.

But how can you honestly say that the Church never claimed to be in possession of the absolute truth? I am not speaking about theories and books written about their philosophic monks, I am speaking about actual practical actions and rules taken and advocated by the Church throughout history.

HVC

Quote from: garbon on September 20, 2013, 08:26:18 AM
I'm not sure why Viking and Tamas are making such a fuss.
religion is one if the few things its still ok to be bigoted about (on either side)
Being lazy is bad; unless you still get what you want, then it's called "patience".
Hubris must be punished. Severely.

Viking

Quote from: merithyn on September 20, 2013, 08:23:15 AM
Quote from: Viking on September 20, 2013, 08:01:34 AM

thats the one where gheys and atheists aren't evil anymore.. it's a new kind of teaching with a new hierachy of symbolic, anecdotal and literal truths. It's just a new kind of claim to truth and knowledge with the same old fucked up epistemology.

Are you talking about the pope's interview where he said that we need to focus more on charity and acceptance than on judgement?

No, I was talking about shelf's imagined new catholicism.

My issue with the popes interview is this..

QuoteSpadaro asks Francis what it means to "think with the church," in the words of St. Ignatius. At this, Francis launches into a discussion of infallibility. "All the faithful, considered as a whole, are infallible in matters of belief," he argues. "When the dialogue among the people and the bishops and the pope goes down this road and is genuine, then it is assisted by the Holy Spirit. ... We should not even think, therefore, that 'thinking with the church' means only thinking with the hierarchy of the church."

thats not catholic, thats islamic kalaam. In effect changing the catholic church from being the worldly manefestation of the holy spirit to being the same as the islamic ummah. Thinking with the church mainly renders the church itself irrellevant and makes any Hutton Gibson wannabe as good as the pope. I'm sorry, but you don't get to change the central organizing principle of your church and still call yourself pope.
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.