Byzantine wank

[Faeelin]

Yeah, I don't think so either. From what I know of Byzantine economics, there's no way they could have managed that. I don't see industrialization happening at all without a total transformation of state economic policy. Maybe if the Italian merchants they relied so much on could have been able to exploit any expanded territories outside of the normal imperial economic framework or something like that. They were just too inflexible economically to adjust to the changing times.

We are talking some 600 years of alternate economic development.

My guess is that the Byzantines would be hamstrung by the same problems as the Ottomans, but who knows?

[Barrister]

We are talking some 600 years of alternate economic development.

My guess is that the Byzantines would be hamstrung by the same problems as the Ottomans, but who knows?

Yeah.  My indredulity was at the word "probably".  Maybs it'd happen that way, but 600+ years of alt-history means there's no such thing as "probably".

[MadImmortalMan]

We are talking some 600 years of alternate economic development.

My guess is that the Byzantines would be hamstrung by the same problems as the Ottomans, but who knows?

Yeah.  My indredulity was at the word "probably".  Maybs it'd happen that way, but 600+ years of alt-history means there's no such thing as "probably".

The way they ran their economy and how it served to prop up their legacy system, creating a self-perpetuating (though highly stable) state makes me think that any change that would make possible the kind of expansion he described would be very difficult to accomplish outside of outright civil war. There would have to be some massive transformational event some time in those 600 years with the side effect of completely changing the economic structure before this could be possible, IMO.

[Ed Anger]

One of the great sins of the internet is the proliferation of the Byzantine fanboy. Without the internet, they are kept in check by jocks and others that would give them atomic wedgies and swirlies. But allowed to communicate over the interwho, their numbers grow beyond their natural limits, without threat of their natural predators.

-From Prof. Monc E. Butt's forthcoming book "How the Internet Ruins Society", Outofmyass Press, 2009

[Drakken]

One of the great sins of the internet is the proliferation of the Byzantine fanboy. Without the internet, they are kept in check by jocks and others that would give them atomic wedgies and swirlies. But allowed to communicate over the interwho, their numbers grow beyond their natural limits, without threat of their natural predators.

-From Prof. Monc E. Butt's forthcoming book "How the Internet Ruins Society", Outofmyass Press, 2009

Yeah, even the First Crusade pilgrims-in-arms thought they were a bunch of sissies dressing in robes and totally lacking any sort of manliness. 

Well, the fact that basileus Alexis closed the city's door on their nose, refused to supply them of food for a while, and attempted by every and all means to have any land conquered by the Crusaders given back to Byzantium did not help the sheep-buggers, PR-wise.

[PDH]

-From Prof. Monc E. Butt's forthcoming book "How the Internet Ruins Society", Outofmyass Press, 2009

"One of the greatest reads in the last 2800 years - way better than Socrates."
-PDH, history dude

[saskganesh]

all Socrates wrote was FAQs anyway. and he needed help.

[Ed Anger]

all Socrates wrote was FAQs anyway. and he needed help.

Final Fantasy FAQ's.

[Faeelin]

The way they ran their economy and how it served to prop up their legacy system, creating a self-perpetuating (though highly stable) state makes me think that any change that would make possible the kind of expansion he described would be very difficult to accomplish outside of outright civil war. There would have to be some massive transformational event some time in those 600 years with the side effect of completely changing the economic structure before this could be possible, IMO.

I'm actually not so sure of this. Before the 4th  Crusade, things were getting... weird is the only way to put it. There were a lot of signs that Byzantium was in the middle of hthe economic boom that you saw in Italy around this time and later. Monemvasia was developing a lot of institutions that seemed very similar to those of Genoa, Venice, and the other Italian city-states, for instance.

[MadImmortalMan]

When did they relax the rules about professions being hereditary? Or did they?

That alone basically outlawed economic growth while ensuring that the expenses of the state would grow exponentially (the extra sons went in the army). So the state had to constantly divest its land to pay for itself.

If they did ditch that system at some point (I'm not an expert, I don't know), then there might have been hope for them.

[Queequeg]

We are talking some 600 years of alternate economic development.

My guess is that the Byzantines would be hamstrung by the same problems as the Ottomans, but who knows?

More Byzantines would have been literate in the 11th Century than Muslims in Turkey around 1850.  I pretty seriously doubt that.  I don't think they would have developed quite as quickly as the west, but they'd probably catch some of the Renaissance fever and start building on it like the West.  Just a guess though.   They would not have had the same imperatives as the Ottomans to maintain ethnic disunity in the Balkans, so there might've been some kind of Drang nach Nordern for the Byzantines if they had maintained some kind of stability (say if Basil II didn't kill all the Armenian lords protecting the borderlands).

I think the problems of the Byzantines going forward from a different start of the last millennium would have been the fact that the effectively socialist economy was going to face increasing competition from Italian and various Arab mercantile interests at some point, and maintaining the borders is pretty tough, especially as the Armenians that provided the best 1/5th of the army and lived on the borders were almost as likely to kill Greeks as Muslims. 

[Valmy]

I don't know why you're calling the Ottomans a feudal state; the empire was astonishingly centralized in the 15th-17th centuries. Plus, this statement of Suleiman's is sufficiently awesome that he beats every Baesilus.

Um...the military system was based on a Feudal model.  The Sipahis were a Feudal cavalry force.  The Ottomans had large parts of their Empire that had no allegiance at all to the Sultan beyond supplying ships or troops in time of war.

[Valmy]

With everyone but the Byzantines, that's entirely true. More seriously, I just don't get the appeal for the place.

It is a Medieval state with intrigue, wars, and other various entertaining things.  I guess I do not understand why it is ok to say, find Medieval England or Medieval France appealing but pisses you off to find Medieval Greece appealing.  You also have the Byzantines (or at least their ruling Dynasty) close connection to the early Italian Renaissance, the Russian Empire, and the Ottoman Empire which make them historically interesting.

[garbon]

Medieval England.

Really...England.

[Valmy]

One of the great sins of the internet is the proliferation of the Byzantine fanboy. Without the internet, they are kept in check by jocks and others that would give them atomic wedgies and swirlies. But allowed to communicate over the interwho, their numbers grow beyond their natural limits, without threat of their natural predators.

-From Prof. Monc E. Butt's forthcoming book "How the Internet Ruins Society", Outofmyass Press, 2009

Yeah, even the First Crusade pilgrims-in-arms thought they were a bunch of sissies dressing in robes and totally lacking any sort of manliness. 

Well, the fact that basileus Alexis closed the city's door on their nose, refused to supply them of food for a while, and attempted by every and all means to have any land conquered by the Crusaders given back to Byzantium did not help the sheep-buggers, PR-wise.

I highly doubt Alexius being nice to the First Crusaders would make Byzanteen fanboys less of a scourge on the Internet.