Byzantine wank

[saskganesh]

now to cast down some purple rain, I also think that if you remove Otto dominance from the region, 15th century Byz is just another Genoese satellite. I think global cultural contributions would be limited.

Well yes it depends in part on where the "point of divergance" occurs that allows this fictional modern byzantium to exist.  No Manzikert, and thus positing a very large and powerful Byzantium throughout both modern-day Greece and Anatolia?  No 4th Crusade, and thus a smallish but viable nation centered on the Bosphorus and Aegean?  Or no 1453, and thus a continuing city-state?

But don't downplay too much the contributions a city-state can have.  Florence, Milan, Venice all had very significant cultural impact right up to their incorporation into Italy.  Probably some German city-states too, but I've been reading up on Italian history.

sure. but here's the thing. by outsourcing their navy in the 12th century, the Byzantines not only set themselves up for 1204 (which I think is the best point of convergence), but also established themselves as a branch plant for the economy of some other city state. first Venice, then Genoa. culture is fed by a strong economy, but strong economies are also fed by culture. so I think the Florentian, Ventian, Pisan economies would continue to be the leading catalysts for the Renaissance and more impactful than the Byzantine rump.

now, Byz, being in the western orbit, would have a greater, western, infuence on Moscow. however, if the "Empire" had not fallen, would the Russians have been as interested in identifying themselves with the Byzantines? maybe the Russians would have been disgusted by the Byzantine compacts with the Pope and claimed the Byzantine heritage anyway. And as true defenders of the Orthodox church and the true Byzantine state, they would have the extra incentive to liberate Constantinople. And barring the Ottoman navy, and the Ottoman support for Crimean Tartars, they'll get ports (maybe some Genoese ones) on the Sea of Azov a bit quicker.

[Faeelin]

I stand by it. By the 15th century the Empire was a feudal principality whose economy was dominated by Italian merchants.

Before then, it was a religious state who expressed a fanaticism and intolerance that the Ottoman Empire never displayed. Well. Before the whole Armenian thing, which is a bit different than Medieval religious dynamics.

While I certainly have my own particular cast of historical heroes and villains, even I can acknowledge that that's complete sentimentality speaking and that rationally you can't ascribe any such terms as "deserved" when discussing pre-modern states.

With everyone but the Byzantines, that's entirely true. More seriously, I just don't get the appeal for the place.

[Faeelin]

Um...the Ottoman Empire was a feudal principality dominated by first Slaves and then hereditary Pashas into the 19th century.  You are excusing that State for being feudal in the 19th century while ripping one for being worthless for being feudal during the actual Middle Ages?  Hilarious.

As for being religiously fanatical and intolerant...I beg to differ it was either of those things by the standards of the time.  It was the fact the Byzantines had a Mosque in Constatinople which was one of the primary factors in their 1204 disaster (if you recall the huge fire that swept through the city was started when the Western Crusaders burnt the Mosque down).  Yet it was because of their intolerance that they deserved 1204?

It seems like you hate the Byzantines for not being a modern Liberal state when they were neither.  They were a medieval state for godsake man.  Why don't you trash Plantagenet England for the same and say therefore England should never have existed?  Because that would make as much logical sense.

I don't know why you're calling the Ottomans a feudal state; the empire was astonishingly centralized in the 15th-17th centuries. Plus, this statement of Suleiman's is sufficiently awesome that he beats every Baesilus.

"I am the Slave of God, master of the world, I am Suleyman and my name is read in all the prayers in all the cities of Islam. I am the Shah of Baghdad and Iraq, Caesar of all the lands of Rome, and the Sultan of Egypt. I seized the Hungarian crown and gave it to the least of my slaves. "

The Ottomans rebuilt Constantinople, turning it back into the Queen of Cities. And while Constantinople had a mosque, its record on ruling Muslims in the areas the Byzantines briefly conquered was... not so hot.

[Barrister]

With everyone but the Byzantines, that's entirely true. More seriously, I just don't get the appeal for the place.

What's not to get?  It's the direct descendent to the Roman Empire right up to 1204, or even 1453.  How many other political entities survived in excess of 1000 years like Roma/Constantinople did?  Even fairly old nations like France or England have nowhere near the lifespan of Byzantium.

It's politics and history are so deliciously wacky they make for great reading.

[Malthus]

It's politics and history are so deliciously wacky they make for great reading.

Everyone enjoys a good rousing round of eyeball-gouging. 

[Malthus]

"I am the Slave of God, master of the world, I am Suleyman and my name is read in all the prayers in all the cities of Islam. I am the Shah of Baghdad and Iraq, Caesar of all the lands of Rome, and the Sultan of Egypt. I seized the Hungarian crown and gave it to the least of my slaves. "

All that is missing is "look on my works, ye mighty, and dispair". 

[Barrister]

It's politics and history are so deliciously wacky they make for great reading.

Everyone enjoys a good rousing round of eyeball-gouging. 

That, and nose-splitting.   

[garbon]

I like all the different "forms" of castration.

[saskganesh]

what's not to be fascinated by?

eunuch generals, novel tortures, mechanical thrones, secret weapons, a decadent court, international espionage, a government-dominated economy.

it's like China was in Europe.

[Solmyr]

For one, Byz would not be saddled with all the backward crap like Egypt, Iraq, and North Africa. If it survived into the 19th century with its borders relatively intact, I would say it would have become a more enlightened version of Russia but with Serbs and Bulgarians causing internal trouble instead of Poles and Balts. It would probably also industrialize earlier and could become a competitor to Britain in Middle Eastern imperialism. Then there's also the question if Habsburg Austria would have developed like it did if it did not have the Turks knocking on its gates for two centuries (actually I suspect the focus would simply move east and Byz would become the new "Austria" in this scenario).

[Barrister]

It would probably also industrialize earlier and could become a competitor to Britain in Middle Eastern imperialism.

[Malthus]

For one, Byz would not be saddled with all the backward crap like Egypt, Iraq, and North Africa. If it survived into the 19th century with its borders relatively intact, I would say it would have become a more enlightened version of Russia but with Serbs and Bulgarians causing internal trouble instead of Poles and Balts. It would probably also industrialize earlier and could become a competitor to Britain in Middle Eastern imperialism. Then there's also the question if Habsburg Austria would have developed like it did if it did not have the Turks knocking on its gates for two centuries (actually I suspect the focus would simply move east and Byz would become the new "Austria" in this scenario).

Great. Eyeball gouging, nose splitting and castration on an industrial scale. 

[ulmont]

What's not to get?  It's the direct descendent to the Roman Empire right up to 1204, or even 1453.  How many other political entities survived in excess of 1000 years like Roma/Constantinople did?

Hell yes.  Almost continuously on the decline, but just the death throes of the Roman Empire lasted 1000 years.

[Razgovory]

Great. Eyeball gouging, nose splitting and castration on an industrial scale. 
[/quote]

"Do your part, Keep an eye out for Greece!"

[MadImmortalMan]

It would probably also industrialize earlier and could become a competitor to Britain in Middle Eastern imperialism.

Yeah, I don't think so either. From what I know of Byzantine economics, there's no way they could have managed that. I don't see industrialization happening at all without a total transformation of state economic policy. Maybe if the Italian merchants they relied so much on could have been able to exploit any expanded territories outside of the normal imperial economic framework or something like that. They were just too inflexible economically to adjust to the changing times.