Byzantine wank

[Valmy]

Medieval England.

Really...England.

Indeed.

[garbon]

They'd best let me into their country!

[Faeelin]

Um...the military system was based on a Feudal model.  The Sipahis were a Feudal cavalry force.  The Ottomans had large parts of their Empire that had no allegiance at all to the Sultan beyond supplying ships or troops in time of war.  What do you mean by 'astonishingly centralized'?

? The military system was emphatically not based on the feudal model. As evidence of this, I cite its ability to utterly trash the feudal armies of Europe in every substantive engagement well into the 16th (and arguably 17th) century, to the point where Charles V's reaction to the Ottoman force besieging Vienna was to run for the hills.

The Sipahids are only feudal if you think the Byzantine Theamtic system was also feudal. And of course the Janissaries were a standing military force under the government's control.

Record by what standard?  By the standard of feudal Kingdoms?  I doubt it.  Again I find it hilarious the Ottoman's get a pass and the Byzantines do not.  You are simply moving the goal posts around.

Compared to the Ottomans of course, or even contemporary Muslims.

[Barrister]

Medieval England.

Really...England.

Indeed.

You're a Francophile.  You don't get to idealize England.

[Valmy]

? The military system was emphatically not based on the feudal model. As evidence of this, I cite its ability to utterly trash the feudal armies of Europe in every substantive engagement well into the 16th (and arguably 17th) century, to the point where Charles V's reaction to the Ottoman force besieging Vienna was to run for the hills.

That simply means it is a good army but it certainly was feudal.  The feudal system the Ottoman's ran was excellent because it had a professional core of slave soldiers backing them up.  The Europeans all copied this.

I fail to see what being good has to do with being feudal.

Compared to the Ottomans of course, or even contemporary Muslims.

I was comparing them to other Christian States.  Anyway the Dhimmi laws were copied almost verbatem from the Byzantine laws against Jews.

The Sipahids are only feudal if you think the Byzantine Theamtic system was also feudal. And of course the Janissaries were a standing military force under the government's control.

Yes I believe I said something about it being a 'slave and fuedal' army earlier.

Just like the Sipahids the Theme system certainly became Feudal over time, with hereditary leaders carving out their power centers.  It was a huge and constant problem for both Empires.  It was the result of this problem the Byzantines made the idiotic decision to try to rely on a professional mercenary Army.  Feudalism was simply unavoidable in that era I think.  The problem for the Ottoman's was they were still running this system right up into the 19th century.

Heck even the Janissaries eventually became a hereditary noble class instead of a professional corps.

[Drakken]

Today (May 29th) is the day Byzantium died. 

[Caliga]

You're a Francophile.  You don't get to idealize England.

You get to surrender repeatedly and quickly, though

[saskganesh]

Today (May 29th) is the day Byzantium died. 

neat. what cocktails should be mixed?

[Caliga]

neat. what cocktails should be mixed?

I would suggest the Aegean Sunset. 

[saskganesh]

neat. what cocktails should be mixed?

I would suggest the Aegean Sunset. 

isn't that a cooler?

[saskganesh]

my sister suggested pomegranete martinis

[Ed Anger]

Today (May 29th) is the day Byzantium died. 

I believe I will grill out and have hotdogs, burgers and lemonade. I will toast the agony of the byzantinetard.

[Valmy]

You get to surrender repeatedly and quickly, though

Merde!

[Solmyr]

It would probably also industrialize earlier and could become a competitor to Britain in Middle Eastern imperialism.

Yeah, I don't think so either. From what I know of Byzantine economics, there's no way they could have managed that. I don't see industrialization happening at all without a total transformation of state economic policy. Maybe if the Italian merchants they relied so much on could have been able to exploit any expanded territories outside of the normal imperial economic framework or something like that. They were just too inflexible economically to adjust to the changing times.

Well, it depends on the cutoff period of course. After all, if fragmented Germany could unite and industrialize under state control so fast (enough to overtake Britain), why couldn't Byzantium?

[saskganesh]

I don't think the Reich's control of the economy was nearly as great as the Empire's.

before we go further down this rabbit hole, what were the dynamic factors for German industrialisation and could Byzantinople suitably mimick those?