Byzantine wank

[garbon]

I hadn't seen a real one in a while.

They certainly were oppressive and often incredibly narrow minded jerks with a love for cruel and unusual punishments, however, if you look at them from a modern perspective then their economical and technological status makes them popular. Sort of like, if I was to be a medieval ruler, I would want to be the Emperor of Byzantium because he's got all the cool stuff and the money. They also were an interesting blend of rationality on one side (technology, urbanism, taking no shit from the pope) and total obscurantism on the other side (fanatical monks, obscure theological disputes paralyzing the state for decades, knee-jerk rejection of everything Latin). The weird mix of rationality and obscurantism, of imperialistic might and total civil war, allows you to go and make for yourself the image that you want to have of the Byzantines.

Also you can't argue with the fact that after their fall, southeastern Europe went into pretty much 600 years of shit. First Latin "crusaders" who give a shit about local customs and just milk the place for money and taxes, then a succession of weak Slavic kingdoms that produced one good king and then fell apart again, and then of course the Turks who pretty much turned the Christian Balkan peoples into history-less helots. Between the 15th and 19th century, Serbian, Bulgarian and Greek history pretty much has nothing to tell except for "the turks did this to us, then they did that, some of us fled here, others there".

You can't help wondering, what if Byzantium survived as ain independent major state into the renaissance? The way things went, you today have Russia as champion of orthodox / eastern Christianity but Russia missed out on most aspects of "modernity" (renaissance, enlightenment, human rights, etc) until the 20th century. You could see Byzantium as the one that never got a chance to be the champion but who could have done an immensely better job at spreading civilization and what we (in Christian Europe) understand as modernity.

[Valmy]

Byzantium was a badass medieval state and all but I fail to see what would have been so great about it living on into the modern era.  Could it really have been better as a center of culture than the Ottoman Empire?  Doubtful.

Anyway what was that insanity from?  The EU boards?

[Darth Wagtaros]

Russia missed out on most aspects of "modernity" (renaissance, enlightenment, human rights, etc) until the 23rd century.

Fixed that.

[garbon]

Anyway what was that insanity from?  The EU boards?

Yes, a recent post in CK forum.

[Darth Wagtaros]

Sounds like some Liberal Arts major trying to emulate some of the Hahvahd talking heads he heard on TV. 

[PDH]

I like the thesis that the "fall" of the Empire (I assume the writer meant "start of the last decline") coincided with some sort of decline of Southeastern Europe - when from around 700 AD to this fall the area declined economically, population wise, and in other ways.  The myths of the Urban Byzantine Empire are also here too... it might have been so in 600 AD, but not in 1000 AD.

[Barrister]

Byzantium was a badass medieval state and all but I fail to see what would have been so great about it living on into the modern era.  Could it really have been better as a center of culture than the Ottoman Empire?  Doubtful.

Anyway what was that insanity from?  The EU boards?

Now on the one hand if it had lived on into the really modern era (today) it would have eventually morphed into a Greek nation-state.  With almost certainty a much larger nation-state than current Greece, but a nation-state no less.

Would it have been a better center of culture - well yes?  It's hard to argue that up until the end it was an important center or learning, culture, and the arts, right up to 1453.  Hell I've read the thesis that the scholars of Constantinople that fled post-1453 that really spurred the Renaissance.

But all in all the little article that's "insane".  The author states that there's so much in Byzantine history you can always find something to like, then a couple of lines of idle speculation about what a surviving Byzantium might be like.

[PDH]

The scholars that went West helped Greek scholarship immensely, but they did not spur the Renaissance.  I think that the Renaissance scholars living a century before would take a little umbrage at this...

[Valmy]

Would it have been a better center of culture - well yes?  It's hard to argue that up until the end it was an important center or learning, culture, and the arts, right up to 1453.  Hell I've read the thesis that the scholars of Constantinople that fled post-1453 that really spurred the Renaissance.

Actually the last 100 years of the Empire, culture wise, were in many respects it's brightest.

I think that, ironically, had to do with the fertilization that living besides lots of foreigners (Western Crusaders and Italian merchants on one hand and Turkish invaders on the other) provided.

[Valmy]

The scholars that went West helped Greek scholarship immensely, but they did not spur the Renaissance.  I think that the Renaissance scholars living a century before would take a little umbrage at this...

I think the Greeks had been interacting with the Italians since 1204 had a large contribution to that...or rather were co-participants.  The Greeks had their own renaissance during that era as well just prior to their final collapse.

[saskganesh]

Byzantium was a badass medieval state and all but I fail to see what would have been so great about it living on into the modern era.  Could it really have been better as a center of culture than the Ottoman Empire?  Doubtful.

I'd be optimistic about that. for one, I doubt the government would have outlawed the printing press.

there would be books in large circulation, and with that, many more possibilities for a healthy public intellectual life.

[Darth Wagtaros]

What would Alternative History Belisarius have to say about this?

[Valmy]

I'd be optimistic about that. for one, I doubt the government would have outlawed the printing press.

there would be books in large circulation, and with that, many more possibilities for a healthy public intellectual life.

Oh right.  I had forgotten about that boneheaded move by the Ottoman government.

Edit: but wait didn't that only apply to printing in Arabic letters?  Since they were the language of the Holy Quran or something superstitious like that?

[saskganesh]

I'd be optimistic about that. for one, I doubt the government would have outlawed the printing press.

there would be books in large circulation, and with that, many more possibilities for a healthy public intellectual life.

Oh right.  I had forgotten about that boneheaded move by the Ottoman government.

well, they were "good" muslims.

apparently, even today, there are more books published in Greece (in Greek) annually than in  Arabic globally. mass illiteracy, censorship and an undeveloped book industry still contributes to this centuries old distrust.

[saskganesh]

now to cast down some purple rain, I also think that if you remove Otto dominance from the region, 15th century Byz is just another Genoese satellite. I think global cultural contributions would be limited.