The 100 Year Starship Project

[grumbler]

I think that what would motivate the first starship mission is a very interesting question.  But it's also very difficult to answer concretely and satisfactorily, while specific technical and social challenges might be easier and more fruitful.

I agree that "what would motivate the first starship mission" is interesting in a kind of a philosophical sense, in any practical sense it isn't very interesting.  The people most likely to face this question probably won't be born for another 20 or 30 years, and we know very little about the environment that will shape their decision-making, nor the specific trade-offs they would have to resolve to reach the decision.

[Siege]

What about seeding other planets?
We could send an slow boat to plant genetic material and let life take whatever form it will according the planetaty conditions.
Not that we are likely to get anything back from this.

[katmai]

What about seeding other planets?
We could send an slow boat to plant genetic material and let life take whatever form it will according the planetaty conditions.
Not that we are likely to get anything back from this.

Dammit Israel isn't enough for you people?

[grumbler]

What about seeding other planets?
We could send an slow boat to plant genetic material and let life take whatever form it will according the planetaty conditions.
Not that we are likely to get anything back from this.

Yeah, I read The Iron Dream as well. It just seems rather pointless.

Now, freezing embryos and then thawing and delivering them using some kind of artificial womb some 20 or so years before arrival - that might be doable.  You still have the problem of transmitting culture, and you'd need to look carefully about the emotional and developmental impact of having no adult mentors or models.

[Neil]

What about seeding other planets?
We could send an slow boat to plant genetic material and let life take whatever form it will according the planetaty conditions.
Not that we are likely to get anything back from this.

What's the point of that?  Planets already have life of their own.  I suppose that if some of it managed to stick, it'd be kind of neat that life on several worlds is interrelated, but that wouldn't be a real issue for millions and millions of years.

[Razgovory]

What about seeding other planets?
We could send an slow boat to plant genetic material and let life take whatever form it will according the planetaty conditions.
Not that we are likely to get anything back from this.

What's the point of that?  Planets already have life of their own.  I suppose that if some of it managed to stick, it'd be kind of neat that life on several worlds is interrelated, but that wouldn't be a real issue for millions and millions of years.

They do?  Tell us about the life on other planets, Tim.

[Jacob]

A few questions I think might be interesting:

Okay, say we're about to send off one of these ships and we're doing it as an international effort; how can we put this thing together in a way that will allow countries as diverse as the US, Russia, China, Japan, Brazil, and India* to contribute? Do we structure things such that smaller countries - for example some African nations - can participate even if they cannot contribute meaningfully to the funding of the ship? Why/ why not?

What sort of decision making structure do we set up for the ship? Military style "the captain is god?" Direct democracy? Some sort of hybrid, council of experts? Something else? Again - why/ why not? How is the ship, and later colony, economy supposed to function?

If you're concerned with American civics, you can bring up contentious issues from the national debate there. Assuming a primarily American patterned culture on the ship, does the second amendment hold? Should abortion be viewed differently on this kind of mission? How about crime and punishment? Does it function differently on ship or in a colony with a limited population?

[Neil]

What about seeding other planets?
We could send an slow boat to plant genetic material and let life take whatever form it will according the planetaty conditions.
Not that we are likely to get anything back from this.

What's the point of that?  Planets already have life of their own.  I suppose that if some of it managed to stick, it'd be kind of neat that life on several worlds is interrelated, but that wouldn't be a real issue for millions and millions of years.

They do?  Tell us about the life on other planets, Tim.

No.

[grumbler]

A few questions I think might be interesting:

Okay, say we're about to send off one of these ships and we're doing it as an international effort; how can we put this thing together in a way that will allow countries as diverse as the US, Russia, China, Japan, Brazil, and India* to contribute? Do we structure things such that smaller countries - for example some African nations - can participate even if they cannot contribute meaningfully to the funding of the ship? Why/ why not?

What sort of decision making structure do we set up for the ship? Military style "the captain is god?" Direct democracy? Some sort of hybrid, council of experts? Something else? Again - why/ why not? How is the ship, and later colony, economy supposed to function?

If you're concerned with American civics, you can bring up contentious issues from the national debate there. Assuming a primarily American patterned culture on the ship, does the second amendment hold? Should abortion be viewed differently on this kind of mission? How about crime and punishment? Does it function differently on ship or in a colony with a limited population?

Thanks, Jake.  These are the sorts of things I am looking for.  I had come up with a couple of these already, but you've added a lot to the discussion.

Indeed, the issue of "who goes" isn't just a matter of the individuals.  Like I said, what cultures/languages/heritages should be exported along with the colonists?  Multiple languages could make things tricky, but would, say, France cooperate in the sending of an Anglophone colony?  Would such a project unite humanity, or divide it?  Would, indeed, enough people with the skills needed be willing to volunteer for such a mission, knowing that they would be leaving behind successful and relatively comfortable futures for the unknown?

[Siege]

I think every colony should be independent at the planet level, but inside there should be at least 6 diferent city-colonies, with 6 diferent cultures.

Since not every culture can be represented, I call for the permanent members of the UNSC to have each one colony-city-state on any given planet. That will ensure that not one planet will the develop as a single culture superpower to eventually challenge Earth and its Solarian Alliance.

The worst we can do, is to allow independent colonization by either single nation-states or non-state organizations.

Imagine all the members of some cult religion or political group colonizing and taking possesion of an entire planet.

[Jaron]

I wonder given overpopulation of the Earth, the general lack of desire to go into space to do manual labor (and unwillingness to pay high amounts of money for that kind of work), if we'd see some return to slavery/forced labor in the future. I'd say it is highly likely. Maybe forced relocation. Maybe that's how the 3rd world can contribute?

[DontSayBanana]

I wonder given overpopulation of the Earth, the general lack of desire to go into space to do manual labor (and unwillingness to pay high amounts of money for that kind of work), if we'd see some return to slavery/forced labor in the future. I'd say it is highly likely. Maybe forced relocation. Maybe that's how the 3rd world can contribute?

Australia was founded as a penal colony, so that's not out of the realm of reason.

As much as I'm a hard science guy, the social engineering angle really does fascinate me when it comes to this.  Without finding a way to cheat the speed of light for speed of communications, early colonists won't really be able to rely on support from back home for any kind of legal or logistics questions.  So the options for early colonies seem to me to be:

1) Lawlessness.  Possible if we go the penal colony route; society decides that some people are too dangerous to integrate back into normal society and put them out of sight and out of mind.

In this scenario, convicts would probably be delivered via automated ferry ships that don't land; dropships deliver colonists to the surface to minimize the population required to secure a spaceport.

2) Militarization.  This is the way the Mars One project seems to be leaning, and in my opinion, the most likely scenario.  Clear chain of command, with an administrator or governor responsible for policy decisions.

Private actors need to operate within government supervision, but that doesn't mean they can't set their own chains of command, and privatized companies like their hierarchy as much as, if not more than, governments.  This way probably provides the most connection to terrestrial government, since the administrator could be answerable to earthside superiors via a "check-in" process.

3) Start from scratch.  I think of this one as the "hippie commune" option.  In this scenario, the colonists and their sponsors recognize the lack of feasibility in remaining tethered to a terrestrial hierarchy and are given powers to create their own charter/constitution/legal framework.  The downside to this is for any kind of sustainability, it would probably require the largest seed population to see/consider effects of and on inter-colony trade, immigration and expatriation, etc, etc.

[Eddie Teach]

1) Lawlessness.  Possible if we go the penal colony route; society decides that some people are too dangerous to integrate back into normal society and put them out of sight and out of mind.

In this scenario, convicts would probably be delivered via automated ferry ships that don't land; dropships deliver colonists to the surface to minimize the population required to secure a spaceport.

I suspect prisons on Earth will always be cheaper than prisons in space. Australians were expected to grow or catch their own food.

[DontSayBanana]

I suspect prisons on Earth will always be cheaper than prisons in space. Australians were expected to grow or catch their own food.

Actually, that reminds me of a fourth scenario, a corollary where the "haves" leave the "have nots" to dwindling resources on Earth.  I call it the "Blade Runner" scenario.

[Eddie Teach]

Are these scenarios of yours involving interstellar travel or just our solar system? In the first case, the cost of the transport won't be worth it for prisoners. In the second, Earth will always have more resources.