Chávez dead

[Tamas]

You are joking, but the UK economy actually is in a pretty bad shape.

clearly the fault of Thatcher.

[Martinus]

You are joking, but the UK economy actually is in a pretty bad shape.

clearly the fault of Thatcher.

Well, in a sense, yes. She was the first one who destroyed heavy industry in Britain and put all the eggs in one basket called the City - and in the current crisis this is what hurt the most.

[Tamas]

You are joking, but the UK economy actually is in a pretty bad shape.

clearly the fault of Thatcher.

Well, in a sense, yes. She was the first one who destroyed heavy industry in Britain and put all the eggs in one basket called the City - and in the current crisis this is what hurt the most.

true. low skill industrial jobs are what keeping the first world alive at the moment.

[Zanza]

How about high skill industrial jobs?

I work in a manufacturing company white collar job. If the blue collar jobs weren't here anymore, the white collar jobs wouldn't be here either.

[CountDeMoney]

I work in a manufacturing company white collar job. If the blue collar jobs weren't here anymore, the white collar jobs wouldn't be here either.

Get yourself ready for that one, then.

[Zanza]

I work in a manufacturing company white collar job. If the blue collar jobs weren't here anymore, the white collar jobs wouldn't be here either.

Get yourself ready for that one, then.

Actually in my area of work, we have already outsourced most of the actual work to India, Belarus, Romania and other places. I guess we do less than 10% ourselves, so I am not sure if there is much more we can outsource. Our main work is to coordinate the various consultants and developers from different suppliers and do some project management.

[Viking]

Elections can be stolen in many ways. The easiest and most common is to make them unfair. Viz Erdogan's threshold, Chavez' dangerous atmosphere to be an opposition politician and Putin's corruption when dealing with a completely cynical electorate. If your defense of Chavez is that he wasn't as bad as Castro then I suggest you need to look at your moral compass.

I'm not defending him. I'm saying he wasn't a dictator. If this forum was teeming with Bolivarian revolutionaries I'd be pointing out that he trashed the great democratic legacy of Betancourt, undermined his left-wing goals by tolerating corruption and often catastrophic economic policies and that he won elections through media abuse and intimidation.

But it's not. It's full of people saying he was a dictator. And he wasn't.

He was in the colloquial sense that he was a non-democratic ruler. You are setting the standard for dictatorship at mass murdering head of state. I suggest that you are trying to avoid the dissonance you would have to deal with since you see chavez as being on your side emotionally.

[garbon]

I work in a manufacturing company white collar job. If the blue collar jobs weren't here anymore, the white collar jobs wouldn't be here either.

Get yourself ready for that one, then.

Actually in my area of work, we have already outsourced most of the actual work to India, Belarus, Romania and other places. I guess we do less than 10% ourselves, so I am not sure if there is much more we can outsource. Our main work is to coordinate the various consultants and developers from different suppliers and do some project management.

So then a strange statement from you given that your manufacturing company has few white collar jobs where you are.

[garbon]

In light of this discussion, I wonder what languish thinks of wiki's list.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictator#List_of_dictators_in_modern_times

[CountDeMoney]

I work in a manufacturing company white collar job. If the blue collar jobs weren't here anymore, the white collar jobs wouldn't be here either.

Get yourself ready for that one, then.

Actually in my area of work, we have already outsourced most of the actual work to India, Belarus, Romania and other places. I guess we do less than 10% ourselves, so I am not sure if there is much more we can outsource. Our main work is to coordinate the various consultants and developers from different suppliers and do some project management.

Only a matter of time before they figure out how to outsource you. 

[Sheilbh]

For goodness sakes - Hitler won a "free but not fair" election.  So did Mugabe.  Hell does Saddam Hussein's 99% re-election count?

You're putting too much emphasis on elections.

Not really. There's all the organisation and campaigning of the opposition that goes with those free and unfair elections. I mean of those examples and Caracas, where would you rather be an opposition activist? Or for that matter someone who simply disagrees with the regime?

He was in the colloquial sense that he was a non-democratic ruler. You are setting the standard for dictatorship at mass murdering head of state.

Not really. I mean Castro and Hu, comparatively, weren't mass-murderers. I think dictatorships don't tolerate dissent very easily outside of occasional controlled expressions. They normally have secret polices and spy on their people (though I think Chavez got some Cuban intelligence help after 2005). They routinely and institutionally abuse human rights. They don't allow organised opposition.

I suggest that you are trying to avoid the dissonance you would have to deal with since you see chavez as being on your side emotionally.

No. I've no problem calling a left-wing dictator - Chavez or Mugabe - precisely that. I don't really have any attachment or emotion towards Chavez. He always struck me as a preposterous sideshow - both for American right-wingers and the soft left. He wasn't a threat or a hero but an autocrat who, like Putin, ended up screwing his country and leaving a mess.

I'd suggest it's your habit of not being able to oppose something without also getting morally outraged and the general internet trend to hyperbole that's behind it.

[Valmy]

Well, in a sense, yes. She was the first one who destroyed heavy industry in Britain and put all the eggs in one basket called the City - and in the current crisis this is what hurt the most.

I have a hard time believing subsidizing out of date and uncompetitive government owned industries is the best way to weather a financial crisis but perhaps not.  Even if they were still doing this wouldn't the City be the main source of tax funds needed?

[Valmy]

This guy smiles at your "enemies of democracy list".

He should be.  He has invested so much money in making democracy work.

[Valmy]

No. I've no problem calling a left-wing dictator - Chavez or Mugabe - precisely that. I don't really have any attachment or emotion towards Chavez. He always struck me as a preposterous sideshow - both for American right-wingers and the soft left. He wasn't a threat or a hero but an autocrat who, like Putin, ended up screwing his country and leaving a mess.

Yep.  He only attracted attention because he barked alot.  Well and he funded those groups in Columbia that was shitty.

[Tamas]

Well, in a sense, yes. She was the first one who destroyed heavy industry in Britain and put all the eggs in one basket called the City - and in the current crisis this is what hurt the most.

I have a hard time believing subsidizing out of date and uncompetitive government owned industries is the best way to weather a financial crisis but perhaps not.  Even if they were still doing this wouldn't the City be the main source of tax funds needed?

Apparently, Martinus thinks he would be of better use for society and economy in a coal mine than in a lawyer's office. And frankly, he is right