Chávez dead

[Viking]

I guess some of the more 'enthusiastic' contributors to this thread will demanding the utmost respect is shown in the future Thatcher RIP thread ?

I certainly will be.  Comparing Thatcher to some random South American strongman is just foolish.

Yeah, no comparison, Thatcher had aircraft carriers

[Grey Fox]

I mean, comparing Chavez to Thatcher?

I'm going to just assume that you're joking.

Same evil on their country.

Don't be stupid, Gay Fox.  Britain after Thatcher was a modern, prosperous country.

Yes, Evil.

[Ed Anger]

I also ain't gonna revel in his death. Death by cancer is nasty and painful. We should have couped his ass, shot him in the head and dumped him in a cornfield like Joe Pesci in Casino.

[Valmy]

Why they're both broadly idealogical political leaders, both elected and neither of whom might have been to the long term benefit of their respective countries. 

THE COAL MINES!!!1111

Worst tragedy ever.  All Britons should be underground breathing toxic fumes like God intended.

[Valmy]

I find I've no opinion in the burgeoning 'I'm more progressive' fans v haters competition on the left over this. He always seemed to me like a leftist Latin American variation on Putin.

He seemed like a Latin American variation of...wait no he was the classic Latin American dictator populist who have ruined South America for centuries.  Anybody sad to see him go shouldn't worry.  Plenty of more just like him.

[Valmy]

But do carry on, as I find the more idealogical driven North American commentators in this thread rather amusing.   

I find the ignorant out of touch Euros who see shit and call it gold pretty amusing.

[Viking]

Why they're both broadly idealogical political leaders, both elected and neither of whom might have been to the long term benefit of their respective countries. 

THE COAL MINES!!!1111

Worst tragedy ever.  All Britons should be underground breathing toxic fumes like God intended.

I'm also glad the britons on the surface aren't breathing toxic fumes either.

[Sheilbh]

He seemed like a Latin American variation of...wait no he was the classic Latin American dictator populist who have ruined South America for centuries.

Only in America would the image of a classic Latin American dictator be a left-wing populist rather than a Colonel in sinister sunglasses dropping left-wing populists out of helicopters

Had his coup in the 90s succeeded, I'd agree. But he was democratically elected and won repeated elections which were free if nowhere near fair. He ruled autocratically moulding and remoulding the constitution to suit his needs. All of which is a part of that new autocratic style that Putin has sort-of perfected. But he was an autocrat not a dictator. Putin, not Castro.

[Valmy]

Only in America would the image of a classic Latin American dictator be a left-wing populist rather than a Colonel in sinister sunglasses dropping left-wing populists out of helicopters

There are varieties

Well I guess you have a point on the Putin comparison there.

[Neil]

An autocrat and a dictator are the same thing.  Both rule by force and nothing else.

[Razgovory]

An autocrat and a dictator are the same thing.  Both rule by force and nothing else.

Untrue.  An autocrat is simply a person who rules by themselves.

[Viking]

He seemed like a Latin American variation of...wait no he was the classic Latin American dictator populist who have ruined South America for centuries.

Only in America would the image of a classic Latin American dictator be a left-wing populist rather than a Colonel in sinister sunglasses dropping left-wing populists out of helicopters

Had his coup in the 90s succeeded, I'd agree. But he was democratically elected and won repeated elections which were free if nowhere near fair. He ruled autocratically moulding and remoulding the constitution to suit his needs. All of which is a part of that new autocratic style that Putin has sort-of perfected. But he was an autocrat not a dictator. Putin, not Castro.

Well, one takes control over the government and distributes the countries resources to his friends and backers dropping his enemies out of helicopters and the other does precisely the same thing.

Chavez corrupted the entire political structure of Venezuela from the courts to PDVSA to stay in power bankrupting the country in the process. Being left wing doesn't excuse that in any way. The thing is that he was a dictator and he did steal an election.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_recall_referendum,_2004


Edit: When I use the word dictator here I use it in the colloquial sense of non-democratic ruler rather than the technical dictator of policy and actions the word originally means. You can have democratic dictators, most european parliamentary democracies are dictatorships with the parliament itself being the dictator.

[Sheilbh]

An autocrat and a dictator are the same thing.  Both rule by force and nothing else.

As I say I think there's a difference between Putin or Chavez and Castro or Hu.

Chavez corrupted the entire political structure of Venezuela from the courts to PDVSA to stay in power bankrupting the country in the process. Being left wing doesn't excuse that in any way.

I don't think I've said anything that goes against this

The thing is that he was a dictator and he did steal an election.

Interesting though it is an election and I think he won 4-5 Presidential races. I didn't know that but I don't think that makes him a dictator. My understanding, as I say, was that he won free and unfair elections.

[Viking]

Interesting though it is an election and I think he won 4-5 Presidential races. I didn't know that but I don't think that makes him a dictator. My understanding, as I say, was that he won free and unfair elections.

Elections can be stolen in many ways. The easiest and most common is to make them unfair. Viz Erdogan's threshold, Chavez' dangerous atmosphere to be an opposition politician and Putin's corruption when dealing with a completely cynical electorate. If your defense of Chavez is that he wasn't as bad as Castro then I suggest you need to look at your moral compass.

[Valmy]

Is Sheilbh really defending Chavez?  Comparisons to Putin are not exactly meant to be compliments.