France Invades Mali

[mongers]

Ok, guys, fess up:  who gave Yi a thesaurus for Christmas?

[Sheilbh]

The same way that unifying French and British command in WWI strengthened the allies, but the opposite.

Can you see any differences between WWI and the Cold War that might make them poor analogies?

Codswallop.  Tripe.  Bollocks.

Nonsense

[Razgovory]

De Gaulle's magnificent. Americans moan about Europe not wanting to pull their weight in the world and then bitch about the one country that does

Utter tripe.  Complete codswallop.  Pulling out of the NATO command structure and weakening the military alliance that defended France against Warsaw Pact invasion is the exact opposite of pulling one's one weight.  France under De Gaulle invented the tactic of fucking with your most important ally as a pathetic ploy to restore emasculated national pride.

Wait, going alone is now a coasting let others carry the weight tactic now?

[Razgovory]

A French soldier in Mali with an awesome mask:

It's a bit lamer when you realize it's something from a videogame.

[Razgovory]

I'm telling you people, it's that piece of shit de Gaulle's fault.  Back in the day Amerikkka loved France.  Remember how they helped us push Britain's shit in during the Revolution?  We used to be pretty damn grateful for that.

Roosevelt's fondness for French fascists didn't help

It's not like Britain was much better on this issue.  Nobody was certain how to deal with the French governments.  Fortunately Darlan was murdered, and the Nazis took over Vichy controlled France which clarified the issue quite a bit.  That's one thing you got to give the Germans Credit for, they were good at making politics simpler for their enemies.

[Admiral Yi]

Can you see any differences between WWI and the Cold War that might make them poor analogies?

In terms of the value of unity of command?  No.

[derspiess]

De Gaulle's magnificent. Americans moan about Europe not wanting to pull their weight in the world and then bitch about the one country that does

Utter tripe.  Complete codswallop.  Pulling out of the NATO command structure and weakening the military alliance that defended France against Warsaw Pact invasion is the exact opposite of pulling one's one weight.  France under De Gaulle invented the tactic of fucking with your most important ally as a pathetic ploy to restore emasculated national pride.

Wait, going alone is now a coasting let others carry the weight tactic now?

In this case, I'd say so.  They relieved themselves of the burden of subordinating themselves to NATO command, while reaping the benefits-- you know NATO would have come to France's defense as if it had remained a full member during that time.

[Razgovory]

What was the burden of subordinating yourself to NATO command?

[derspiess]

What was the burden of subordinating yourself to NATO command?

[Sheilbh]

It's not like Britain was much better on this issue.  Nobody was certain how to deal with the French governments.  Fortunately Darlan was murdered, and the Nazis took over Vichy controlled France which clarified the issue quite a bit.  That's one thing you got to give the Germans Credit for, they were good at making politics simpler for their enemies.

Britain was better. The UK always supported de Gaulle and the Free French despite occasional () fights. We helped fund them too. Churchill never tried to 'deal' with another leader however emotional his relationship with de Gaulle got.

It's not just Darlan. The US pushed Giraud who was less of a collaborationist but also less of a leader. That the French resistance in France acknowledged only de Gaulle as their leader helped clarify issues too. I mean right up until the end Roosevelt wanted to deal with other French leaders. Like the resistance Ike told de Gaulle that as far as he was concerned he was the leader of the French and would always treat him as such, regardless of Roosevelt.

In this case, I'd say so.  They relieved themselves of the burden of subordinating themselves to NATO command, while reaping the benefits-- you know NATO would have come to France's defense as if it had remained a full member during that time.

Again this ignores the force de frappe which is a complementary and key part of French independent policy. However you know full well that if Germany were invaded, despite not being full members of NATO France would have fully joined the war as if she were - Article 5 or not.

[derspiess]

Again this ignores the force de frappe which is a complementary and key part of French independent policy. However you know full well that if Germany were invaded, despite not being full members of NATO France would have fully joined the war as if she were - Article 5 or not.

I can envision scenarios where they would've stayed put.

[Sheilbh]

Can you see any differences between WWI and the Cold War that might make them poor analogies?

In terms of the value of unity of command?  No.

Does the lack of war not matter?

[Crazy_Ivan80]

It's not like Britain was much better on this issue.  Nobody was certain how to deal with the French governments.  Fortunately Darlan was murdered, and the Nazis took over Vichy controlled France which clarified the issue quite a bit.  That's one thing you got to give the Germans Credit for, they were good at making politics simpler for their enemies.

Britain was better. The UK always supported de Gaulle and the Free French despite occasional () fights. We helped fund them too. Churchill never tried to 'deal' with another leader however emotional his relationship with de Gaulle got.

and that was the sole correct course, there was no ambiguity, no need to deal with 'that other france'

[Neil]

Roosevelt's fondness for French fascists didn't help

Meh.  At least Vichy had the benefit of being an actual government, rather than some junior officer with delusions of Bonapartism.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Again this ignores the force de frappe which is a complementary and key part of French independent policy. However you know full well that if Germany were invaded, despite not being full members of NATO France would have fully joined the war as if she were - Article 5 or not.

I can envision scenarios where they would've stayed put.

those are probably the same scenario's in which the Us stayed put too.