Should voters be required to show photo ID?

[crazy canuck]

Marty-like comparisons aside. Getting an ID isn't outside the ability of anyone who cares.

That is a nice justification for denying the vote. People just dont care enough. I can see that flying at a Republican convention.

[Jacob]

Well it's pretty consistent.

People who care can get a job.
People who care will buy health insurance.

So if you don't have a job or health insurance it's because you don't care.

Same with voting.

[CountDeMoney]

One of the things that got me thinking about this is a story I heard about Seattle yesterday.  Apparently there is a place surrounded by poor neighbourhoods that is referred to as a food desert because there are no grocery stores within a reasonable distance where residents can by food and so they purchase their food from corner stores and gas stations (no offence intended).

I found that remarkable and didnt believe it at first but apparently that is a phenomenon in a number of cities in the industrialized world (the term seems to have been coined in the UK).  Not having available access to healthy food apparently has all kinds of negative outcomes.  I mean sure eating at a gas station every now and then is fine but a steady diet of quicky mart hotdogs has got to have some adverse effect.

If not having having ready access to a grocery store influences eating behaviour negatively I think it likely that not having ready access to a DMV is likely to influence the likelyhood of actually getting to the DMV with all the documents required to obtain the ID.

Our resident Republican apologists can laugh all they want at the hoops one must jump through which seem trivial to people with the resources and ability to easily jump through them.  But we should not assess the impact of voting laws based on how it will impact those it will not likely impact but rather those it is most likely to impact.

CC, we've had a discussion that involved this very concept many, many moons ago regarding the phenomenon of health issues of inner city denizens.  You will not find any sympathy for their disadvantages here.

[crazy canuck]

Well it's pretty consistent.

People who care can get a job.
People who care will buy health insurance.

So if you don't have a job or health insurance it's because you don't care.

Same with voting.

I am not sure why I didnt see that inescapable logic before. 

[Maximus]

Well it's pretty consistent.

People who care can get a job.
People who care will buy health insurance.

So if you don't have a job or health insurance it's because you don't care.

Same with voting.

It's not even a little bit the same. ID cards are not a scarce resource. It's like everyone is trying to fill in for Marty while he's gone.

[crazy canuck]

CC, we've had a discussion that involved this very concept many, many moons ago regarding the phenomenon of health issues of inner city denizens.  You will not find any sympathy for their disadvantages here.

I fully expect that to be the case.  It reminds me a bit of the dust up BB and I had many moons ago over some of the causes of unemployment.

[Jacob]

It's not even a little bit the same. ID cards are not a scarce resource. It's like everyone is trying to fill in for Marty while he's gone.

What's with the need for name-calling?

The point is, that if you look at things systemically, you can take actions to increase voter participation or to decrease voter participation (or affect any other social issue). If you chose to decrease voter participation, especially amongst groups that are already under represented, you can of course say that it's because "they don't care"; but it nonetheless comes across as incredibly self-serving when they happen to vote against you and when you can't come up with any data show the need for restricting their access.

Furthermore, in a democratic country the proper response to "voters don't care" isn't "well, let's make it harder for them to vote" it's "let's help them overcome the hurdles to voting."

[CountDeMoney]

It's not even a little bit the same. ID cards are not a scarce resource. It's like everyone is trying to fill in for Marty while he's gone.

What's with the need for name-calling?

No kidding, talk about below the belt.

[Maximus]

What's with the need for name-calling?

I apologize, the amount of assumptions being thrown around in this thread is staggering, but I should not have stooped to the same level.

The point is, that if you look at things systemically, you can take actions to increase voter participation or to decrease voter participation (or affect any other social issue). If you chose to decrease voter participation, especially amongst groups that are already under represented, you can of course say that it's because "they don't care"; but it nonetheless comes across as incredibly self-serving when they happen to vote against you and when you can't come up with any data show the need for restricting their access.

If we don't require voters to show that they have the right to vote, then effectively everyone(or no one) has the right to vote. That may or may not be fine in your view, but it should be reflected in the law and not in the inability to enforce it.

Furthermore, in a democratic country the proper response to "voters don't care" isn't "well, let's make it harder for them to vote" it's "let's help them overcome the hurdles to voting."

And making sure everyone has a valid ID isn't doing that?

[The Brain]

I don't want poors to vote. They are unintelligent and ignorant.

[Jacob]

I apologize, the amount of assumptions being thrown around in this thread is staggering, but I should not have stooped to the same level.

That is a shitty and weak apology I apologize for saying that, but it's true. At least I didn't have to stoop to your level, so there is that.

If we don't require voters to show that they have the right to vote, then effectively everyone(or no one) has the right to vote. That may or may not be fine in your view, but it should be reflected in the law and not in the inability to enforce it.

Gosh... so nobody has the right to vote in states where they don't require ID? That's a pretty big indictment of American democracy you're putting forth there.

Furthermore, in a democratic country the proper response to "voters don't care" isn't "well, let's make it harder for them to vote" it's "let's help them overcome the hurdles to voting."

And making sure everyone has a valid ID isn't doing that?

Well, if the voter ID laws were combined with concerted drives to register voters and getting them ID, then it would (an organization like ACORN would be great at that). When it's "you can't vote without your ID, but we're keeping the DMV open another 3 hours a week to help you out" it isn't.

[derspiess]

Hell, I bet ACORN would be able to cut out the middle man & print the ID themselves! 

Anyway, as I mentioned there are organizations that are working to help voters get IDs.

[Jacob]

Anyway, as I mentioned there are organizations that are working to help voters get IDs.

Well that's good. What organizations are these?

[Maximus]

Gosh... so nobody has the right to vote in states where they don't require ID? That's a pretty big indictment of American democracy you're putting forth there.

Why do you think that's what I wrote?

Well, if the voter ID laws were combined with concerted drives to register voters and getting them ID, then it would (an organization like ACORN would be great at that). When it's "you can't vote without your ID, but we're keeping the DMV open another 3 hours a week to help you out" it isn't.

Yes. And provide an ID that is sufficient for the purpose that everyone can get.

But of course it's easier to assume that I want to deny people the vote and I wouldn't think of expecting you to do something that's not easy.

[FunkMonk]

Anyway, as I mentioned there are organizations that are working to help voters get IDs.

Well that's good. What organizations are these?

Organizations like the League of Women Voters and Rock the Vote--

Florida's New Election Law Blunts Voter Drives
By MICHAEL COOPER and JO CRAVEN McGINTY
Florida, which is expected to be a vital swing state once again in this year's presidential election, is enrolling fewer new voters than it did four years ago as prominent civic organizations have suspended registration drives because of what they describe as onerous restrictions imposed last year by Republican state officials.

The state's new elections law — which requires groups that register voters to turn in completed forms within 48 hours or risk fines, among other things — has led the state's League of Women Voters to halt its efforts this year. Rock the Vote, a national organization that encourages young people to vote, began an effort last week to register high school students around the nation — but not in Florida, over fears that teachers could face fines. And on college campuses, the once-ubiquitous folding tables piled high with voter registration forms are now a rarer sight.

Florida, which reminded the nation of the importance of every vote in the disputed presidential election in 2000 when it reported that George W. Bush had won by 537 votes, is now seeing a significant drop-off in new voter registrations. In the months since its new law took effect in July, 81,471 fewer Floridians have registered to vote than during the same period before the 2008 presidential election, according to an analysis of registration data by The New York Times. All told, there are 11.3 million voters registered in the state.

It is difficult to say just how much of the decrease is due to the restrictions in the law, and how much to demographic changes, a lack of enthusiasm about politics or other circumstances, including the fact that there was no competitive Democratic presidential primary this year. But new registrations dropped sharply in some areas where the voting-age population has been growing, the analysis found, including Miami-Dade County, where they fell by 39 percent, and Orange County, where they fell by a little more than a fifth. Some local elections officials said that the lack of registration drives by outside groups has been a factor in the decline.

In Volusia County, where new registrations dropped by nearly a fifth compared with the same period four years ago, the supervisor of elections, Ann McFall, said that she attributed much of the change to the new law. "The drop-off is our League of Women Voters, our five universities in Volusia County, none of which are making a concentrated effort this year," Ms. McFall said.

Florida's law — which is being challenged in court by civic groups and, in counties covered by the Voting Rights Act, the Justice Department — is one of more than a dozen that states have passed in recent years that have made it harder to vote by requiring voters to show photo identification at polls, reducing early voting periods or making it more difficult to register.

Republicans, who have passed nearly all of the new voting laws, say the restrictions are needed to prevent fraud. Democrats note that such fraud almost never happens, and say that the laws will make it harder for young people and members of minorities, who tend to support Democrats, to vote.

...
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/28/us/restrictions-on-voter-registration-in-florida-have-groups-opting-out.html

Oh, wait... nevermind.