[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Drakken]

Jack Layton was of course born in Quebec - are there any born elsewhere that have ever "understood" Quebec?

Anglo-Quebecer from Montreal. That counts for half-a-point. However, Layton actually learned French and mixed with Francophones. He was empathetic enough to talk to Quebecers straight to the heart, in good French, and he showed that he cared AND understood. It worked for him, because he was the first Anglophone politician to actually take all those those things that made us mentally divorce from Canada, and at least attempt to make it right. It worked so well, that Quebecers ditched the BQ like a dead stick.

Mulcair... no one liked Mulcair in Quebec, not even when he was a Liberal minister. Effective and dogged parlementarian, oh yes he was. Charismatic and loveable? Not a chance in hell.

[Valmy]

Or else how do you explain how very few anglo Canadians speak French (outside of Quebec, New Brunswick and the Ottawa region)?

I just thought it was because English speakers are the worst at learning other languages.

[crazy canuck]

As a former, and occasional, NDP voter, I'm not sorry to see him go. He grossly underestimated Trudeau in the election as well as overestimated leftists' desire to move to the centre.

Everybody grossly underestimated Trudeau.  I don't think it is fair to single out Mulcair for not being the one person who realized the prevailing wisdom would turn out wrong.

I didn't 

But also, once the campaign got going everyone could see that Trudeau started gaining momentum, pretty much from Day One, and that he was unashamedly picking up the normally left wing ideologoical issues that Mulcair threw away. Mulcair didn't see this until it was too late. He kept on talking about balanced budgets like a tired mantra. He was never going to beat Harper on a balanced budget platform.

You were always concerned that people would change their vote from NDP to Liberal not because of Trudeau but because that is generally always what happens after an initial good showing by the NDP in the polls.   It is also an overstatement to say that Trudeau gained momentum from the start.  We were well into the election before the Liberals started gaining in the polls.  They spent a long while below a 10% chance of winning and it was not until the last days of the election that they began to be projected to have a chance of defeating the Conservatives.

The NDP were ahead of the Conservatives in the polls with Mulcair talking like that.  This election was always about who non Conservative voters were going to vote for to try to defeat the Conservatives.  Early on that choice was clearly the NDP.  Mulcair looked like he had chosen the best strategy early on in the election.  Only hindsight says he was wrong.

[Valmy]

Because most people don't actually want to be a federal Canadian politician?    And outside of places where French speakers are common, the language isn't really useful for anything else - and people tend to devote time learning things that are actually useful to them?

You say that, but I bet you would be horrible at it even if you desperately needed to learn it

[Malthus]

Jack Layton was of course born in Quebec - are there any born elsewhere that have ever "understood" Quebec?

Anglo-Quebecer from Montreal. That counts for half-a-point. However, Layton actually learned French. He was empathetic enough to talk to Quebecers straight-to-heart, in good French, and got our collective psyche. It worked for him, because he was the first Anglophone politician to actually take all those those things that made us mentally divorce from Canada, and at least attempt to make it right.

Mulcair... no one liked Mulcair in Quebec, not even when he was a Liberal minister. Effective and dogged parlementarian, oh yes he was. Charismatic and loveable? Not a chance in hell.

I take it that the answer is "no". 

But yeah, I get that Mulcair wasn't as charismatic as Layton.

[crazy canuck]

Is it a strong sense of tribalism or something else that makes being born in Quebec necessary for a successful federal politician?

Quebecers generally won't support someone who doesn't speak French.  Almost all Quebecers are bilingual, but few anglo Canadians are.

So, much like the federal civil service, Canadian leadership candidates are disproportionately from Quebec due to the need for such people to be bilingual.

But that was my point.  Anyone can learn how to speak French.  One does not need to be born in Quebec to acquire the language.  But I am told by our Quebec Languishites that is not enough. I am told that no matter how culturally, politically or linguistically attuned one might be to the interests of Quebec, if the politician isnt born in that province they don't stand a chance.

I don't think that's quite right though.  Learning French requires years of work and near immersion in the language.

Or else how do you explain how very few anglo Canadians speak French (outside of Quebec, New Brunswick and the Ottawa region)?

I think you are who Drakken is thinking about..    You should know that my wife and two boys are bi-lingual and have always resided outside the areas you describe as being necessary to acquire the language.  Also - Valmy (*drops the mic and walks away*) 

[Drakken]

I take it that the answer is "no". 

But yeah, I get that Mulcair wasn't as charismatic as Layton.

He wasn't just as charismatic as Layton. No one likes Mulcair.Quebecer or not didn't even count in the balance.

At least he had a lot of political experience, compared to your habitual NDP-leader perpetually in the opposition that we don't even know about. That's why a chance was given with Mulcair after Layton died.

[Malthus]

Because most people don't actually want to be a federal Canadian politician?    And outside of places where French speakers are common, the language isn't really useful for anything else - and people tend to devote time learning things that are actually useful to them?

You say that, but I bet you would be horrible at it even if you desperately needed to learn it

Heh, true. But I suck at learning languages. I sucked at learning Chinese, too, and I wanted to learn that. 

French here in much of English Canada though has much the same status as Trigonometry for most people - learned in School because educators (and status-seeking parents) believe in its importance, instantly forgotten by like 95% of students once the exam is over, because when was the last time the average person actually needed to know, or use, trig? 

[crazy canuck]

Or else how do you explain how very few anglo Canadians speak French (outside of Quebec, New Brunswick and the Ottawa region)?

I just thought it was because English speakers are the worst at learning other languages.

I think there is some truth to that.  My biggest problem is that in English we no longer use grammatical gender.  But in French if you don't memorize the proper gender of a noun or article you are screwed.  My family though are better equipped for such challenges. 

[Drakken]

I think you are who Drakken is thinking about..    You should know that my wife and two boys are bi-lingual and have always resided outside the areas you describe as being necessary to acquire the language.  Also - Valmy (*drops the mic and walks away*) 

But do they know how to say câlisse de tabarnak d'ostie de sacrament? Do they know who are the coaches at La Voix? Do they understand why Quebecers are by-and-large opposed to the Keystone project? Can they name at least three artists from Quebec who are not Céline Dion?

It's one thing to know how to speak French, it's another thing to live through Quebec and understand its society, language, and psyche. That you reduce it to mere language means you don't 'get' it.

[Malthus]

I think you are who Drakken is thinking about..    You should know that my wife and two boys are bi-lingual and have always resided outside the areas you describe as being necessary to acquire the language.  Also - Valmy (*drops the mic and walks away*) 

But do they know how to say câlisse de tabarnak d'ostie de sacrament/i]? Do they know who are the coaches at La Voix? Do they understand why Quebecers are by-and-large opposed to the Keystone project?

It's one thing to know how to speak French, it's another thing to live through Quebec society and understand its society, language, and psyche. That you reduce it to mere language means you don't 'get' it.

Despite his valiant attempts to become cultured, CC remains a barbarian outside the gates. 

[crazy canuck]

I think you are who Drakken is thinking about..    You should know that my wife and two boys are bi-lingual and have always resided outside the areas you describe as being necessary to acquire the language.  Also - Valmy (*drops the mic and walks away*) 

But do they know how to say câlisse de tabarnak d'ostie de sacrament/i]? Do they know who are the coaches at La Voix? Do they understand why Quebecers are by-and-large opposed to the Keystone project?

It's one thing to know how to speak French, it's another thing to live through Quebec society and understand its society, language, and psyche. That you reduce it to mere language means you don't 'get' it.

No, and I would never counsel my kids to go into federal (or any) politics.  I was only addressed BB's point that some special regional residency is required to learn the language.  So for example, they would be able to at least translate the words you used if not understand the deeper meaning they have for you.

[crazy canuck]

I think you are who Drakken is thinking about..    You should know that my wife and two boys are bi-lingual and have always resided outside the areas you describe as being necessary to acquire the language.  Also - Valmy (*drops the mic and walks away*) 

But do they know how to say câlisse de tabarnak d'ostie de sacrament/i]? Do they know who are the coaches at La Voix? Do they understand why Quebecers are by-and-large opposed to the Keystone project?

It's one thing to know how to speak French, it's another thing to live through Quebec society and understand its society, language, and psyche. That you reduce it to mere language means you don't 'get' it.

Despite his valiant attempts to become cultured, CC remains a barbarian outside the gates. 

And I also would never attempt to be a federal politician 

[viper37]

But that was my point.  Anyone can learn how to speak French.  One does not need to be born in Quebec to acquire the language.  But I am told by our Quebec Languishites that is not enough. I am told that no matter how culturally, politically or linguistically attuned one might be to the interests of Quebec, if the politician isnt born in that province they don't stand a chance.

Read my post above.

No politician born elsewhere has had any chance in Quebec, becaue politican born outside of Quebec has showcased a basic understanding of Quebec. When one 'gets' Quebec and bypasses their latent distrust, they'll flock in droves. That how Jack Layton got such a massive support from Quebecers.

Jack Layton was of course born in Quebec - are there any born elsewhere that have ever "understood" Quebec?

Harper was pretty close.

[Drakken]

Despite his valiant attempts to become cultured, CC remains a barbarian outside the gates. 

There is indeed a deux solitudes. It is a reality, not a play of minds.

Even I, for the life of me, cannot name any artist whatsoever who is or was nominated to the Juno Awards, save Anne Murray (who no one gives a damn about in Quebec) and maybe Blue Rodeo, the Tragically Hip, and K.D Lang. They are nonexistent to us.