Israel-Hamas War 2023

[OttoVonBismarck]

I don't care about the opinions of Brits who support Hamas, fwiw.

OK?
I don't either?
Or are you so far gone you're implying I support Hamas?

You've been a toady puke for Hamas this entire fucking conflict, from day one.

[Josquius]

I don't care about the opinions of Brits who support Hamas, fwiw.

OK?
I don't either?
Or are you so far gone you're implying I support Hamas?

You've been a toady puke for Hamas this entire fucking conflict, from day one.

 
Wow. You really are a genocidal piece of shit.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I don't care about the opinions of Brits who support Hamas, fwiw.

OK?
I don't either?
Or are you so far gone you're implying I support Hamas?

You've been a toady puke for Hamas this entire fucking conflict, from day one.

 
Wow. You really are a genocidal piece of shit.

I'm not the one who supports mass murder of Jews to burnish my leftist credentials.

[The Minsky Moment]

The idea that you think Israel should have to let Hamas survive to get its people back--which is Hamas's red line for negotiating, is ludicrous and disgusting. They need to just let the Muslims overrun the country today and pogrom all the Jews if that is the line Israel is going to draw. That just says "hurt us more, it gets the results you want." Hamas wants bombs to stop dropping, it should return the hostages and agree to let its leadership go into exile.

I don't know where this comes from.  The question on the table is whether Israel should cease operations until April 9 in the hope of a hostage release.  No plan against Hamas is going to seriously compromised by that. If Hamas has not been destroyed in 24 weeks of continuous military acton, a 2 week hiatus is not going to be critical. If Hamas doesn't comply, Israel will have a green light and UN will be neutered.

[Josquius]

I don't care about the opinions of Brits who support Hamas, fwiw.

OK?
I don't either?
Or are you so far gone you're implying I support Hamas?

You've been a toady puke for Hamas this entire fucking conflict, from day one.

 
Wow. You really are a genocidal piece of shit.

I'm not the one who supports mass murder of Jews to burnish my leftist credentials.

No. You're the one who supports mass murder of Muslims to burnish your right wing credentials.

The one who supports mass murder of Jews...I don't think they post on languish. Maybe check twitter?

[OttoVonBismarck]

Meanwhile the antisemites in the UN (lead by virulent antisemite Francesca Albanese) is releasing a report calling Israel's actions in Gaza a genocide, and also painting with broadstrokes a picture of Israel as a "colonial power" akin to the United States with its native americans.

You rubes who think this UNSC absention are the final act are in for a rude awakening. This is the sort of narrative that will be growing in Democrat circles, within a relatively short window of time you will see Joe likely suspending military support of Israel, today's abstention is a future where the UN votes with the UNSC to levy sanctions on Israel, attempting to paint it as a modern day apartheid South Africa.

[Tamas]

The idea that you think Israel should have to let Hamas survive to get its people back--which is Hamas's red line for negotiating, is ludicrous and disgusting. They need to just let the Muslims overrun the country today and pogrom all the Jews if that is the line Israel is going to draw. That just says "hurt us more, it gets the results you want." Hamas wants bombs to stop dropping, it should return the hostages and agree to let its leadership go into exile.

I don't know where this comes from.  The question on the table is whether Israel should cease operations until April 9 in the hope of a hostage release.  No plan against Hamas is going to seriously compromised by that. If Hamas has not been destroyed in 24 weeks of continuous military acton, a 2 week hiatus is not going to be critical. If Hamas doesn't comply, Israel will have a green light and UN will be neutered.

I think OvB is frankly stupid to want to flush his country down the drain with a Trump presidency in the hopes of a tougher stand on Muslim extremism, but it is a bit dishonest to pretend the UN SC pressure is not bad news for the hostages. The hostages are the only leverage Hamas has against the Israeli onslaught, if they feel international pressure can stop Israel, what's the point of giving up their one leverage?

[OttoVonBismarck]

Israel has been the victim of a 75 year campaign to paint it as an illegitimate state by its enemies (who have disproportionate representation in the UN due to the 50 or so Muslim countries that get equal votes in that body to the smaller number of democracies.) This campaign has found a home in the feeble minds of the left in the West, one of the few barriers of sanity keeping this at bay was that in the United States both our left and right stood firm behind Israel. Antisemites and pro-Muslim terrorists may have long ago taken over Europe, but not in America.

What Biden has done by breaking with Israel has set us on a path where every election now will be a decision as to whether we go down the path of European countries which long ago abandoned the premise that Israel is legitimate (frankly Britain never really even supported this, considering they actively helped the Holocaust along during WWII because they didn't want to give Jews too much population in Palestine); we now have a party that will take us in that direction. That party is no longer legitimate. I was a fool to ever think otherwise, the zealots of the right who have been long describing the battle with the left as a battle for survival were right, I was wrong.

[Tamas]

Israel has been the victim of a 75 year campaign to paint it as an illegitimate state by its enemies (who have disproportionate representation in the UN due to the 50 or so Muslim countries that get equal votes in that body to the smaller number of democracies.) This campaign has found a home in the feeble minds of the left in the West, one of the few barriers of sanity keeping this at bay was that in the United States both our left and right stood firm behind Israel. Antisemites and pro-Muslim terrorists may have long ago taken over Europe, but not in America.

What Biden has done by breaking with Israel has set us on a path where every election now will be a decision as to whether we go down the path of European countries which long ago abandoned the premise that Israel is legitimate (frankly Britain never really even supported this, considering they actively helped the Holocaust along during WWII because they didn't want to give Jews too much population in Palestine); we now have a party that will take us in that direction. That party is no longer legitimate. I was a fool to ever think otherwise, the zealots of the right who have been long describing the battle with the left as a battle for survival were right, I was wrong.

You should count to 10, you are way past of becoming the Josq of the pro-Israel side and immediately jumped to be the Viper of it.

[Josquius]

The idea that you think Israel should have to let Hamas survive to get its people back--which is Hamas's red line for negotiating, is ludicrous and disgusting. They need to just let the Muslims overrun the country today and pogrom all the Jews if that is the line Israel is going to draw. That just says "hurt us more, it gets the results you want." Hamas wants bombs to stop dropping, it should return the hostages and agree to let its leadership go into exile.

I don't know where this comes from.  The question on the table is whether Israel should cease operations until April 9 in the hope of a hostage release.  No plan against Hamas is going to seriously compromised by that. If Hamas has not been destroyed in 24 weeks of continuous military acton, a 2 week hiatus is not going to be critical. If Hamas doesn't comply, Israel will have a green light and UN will be neutered.

I think OvB is frankly stupid to want to flush his country down the drain with a Trump presidency in the hopes of a tougher stand on Muslim extremism, but it is a bit dishonest to pretend the UN SC pressure is not bad news for the hostages. The hostages are the only leverage Hamas has against the Israeli onslaught, if they feel international pressure can stop Israel, what's the point of giving up their one leverage?

We'll see.
I agree the 2 weeks doesn't make much of a difference militarily. Hamas can't really regroup that much. But it does put to the test their claim that if the fighting stopped they'd release the hostages.

Of course I fully expect Hamas won't release more than 1 or 2 and will go "No but, this isn't a proper stop you see, you can't trust Israel, they'll just attack again"- which with the current Israeli government is quite believable and many would have just took them at their word even despite this.. but they will lose a lot of support.

In the meantime hopefully the chill pushes Israel to actually come up with a coherent plan beyond frothing  rage.

[The Minsky Moment]

Otto - Keep telling yourself that when the Russian tanks are rolling through Warsaw and Prague, cheered on President Trumpski and Speaker Taylor Greene.

[OttoVonBismarck]

President Trump would not abandon Poland, one of the countries he most consistently praised whilst in office.

I do think Trump stupidly has a personal affection for guys like Putin, but not to the point of supporting them against countries like Poland in an actual war. I think Trump (rightly to some degree) dislikes that most of Europe refuses to contribute to its own defense, I do think Trump sloppily doesn't realize NATO still is mostly to our net benefit because it gives us strategic power in Europe, but it isn't wrong for Trump to pressure European countries to improve their defense. There is even some evidence those harangues worked to a limited degree, and have made Europe take its own defense more seriously.

Trump is dumb and incompetent, but he isn't willing to sell out his country to Muslims to win votes. The choice between him and Joe Biden is clear and concise. One is a vote for Hamas.

[The Minsky Moment]

Hopefully you are right and Poland will not fall, although that will be of little consolation to the Ukranian slave battalions that will be slaughtered in the front line of the human wave attacks.  Because we all know that Trump will 100% sell out Ukraine.

Also folks in the Baltic states should either learn Russian or start canvassing for some coastal real estate to trade.

[Tamas]

President Trump would not abandon Poland, one of the countries he most consistently praised whilst in office.

I do think Trump stupidly has a personal affection for guys like Putin, but not to the point of supporting them against countries like Poland in an actual war. I think Trump (rightly to some degree) dislikes that most of Europe refuses to contribute to its own defense, I do think Trump sloppily doesn't realize NATO still is mostly to our net benefit because it gives us strategic power in Europe, but it isn't wrong for Trump to pressure European countries to improve their defense. There is even some evidence those harangues worked to a limited degree, and have made Europe take its own defense more seriously.

Trump is dumb and incompetent, but he isn't willing to sell out his country to Muslims to win votes. The choice between him and Joe Biden is clear and concise. One is a vote for Hamas.

OMG, man, and I used to think you had a good grasp of politics.

You seem to imply you expect Trump will abandon Ukraine (since you don't mention that) but that's acceptable to counter pan-Muslim influence. But it is obviously not. It doesn't matter where Russia will stop exactly (and BTW Putin cannot stop with the national level of paranoia and aggression, the moment he does the moment his excuse for being in power evaporates), letting them overwhelm Ukraine will collapse the post-WW2 world order and will cascade into a chaos that's going to result in way more global Muslim influence than an abstained Sec Council resolution by Biden.

You should be honest with yourself: you want to vote Republican but lacked the excuse to do so. Now you feel you have it.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I consider the situation in Ukraine unfortunate, but I am not going to abandon Israel out of concern for Ukraine, no.