Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Admiral Yi]

I can't find a post where I said breeding extremism so I really don't know what I could have meant if I said it.

At the bottom of the previous page, page 205 on default settings, I quote your post in its entirety.

[woops, 2 pages back now]

The Israeli government overnight magically having a sudden change of heart and declaring no more war, lets all have a proper piece now, wouldn't instantly cause Palestinians to flip position.
But steps in this direction will give the same on the other side.

Nye River was a step in the right direction.  That produced the second intifada.  Total withdrawal from Gaza was a step in the right direction.  That produced rocket attacks and October 7.  Your assertion is disproved.

[Razgovory]

Not all leftists of course, I don't for instance, but a significant number.  I don't understand your counter-example.

In the United States a great deal revolves about race, and protesters in the US frequently frame the Palestinian situation as a struggle against white supremacy.  Fascism is apparently not a function of what you do or what you believe but skin color and power level.  The Jews are white so they can be fascist, while the Palestinians are people of color so they can't.  That's my best guess.

[Valmy]

Not all leftists of course, I don't for instance, but a significant number.  I don't understand your counter-example.

In the United States a great deal revolves about race, and protesters in the US frequently frame the Palestinian situation as a struggle against white supremacy.  Fascism is apparently not a function of what you do or what you believe but skin color and power level.  The Jews are white so they can be fascist, while the Palestinians are people of color so they can't.  That's my best guess.

That is roughly what I was getting at by my counter-example.

But for all that I do not trust the Palestinians, I don't wish any ill on them any more than I do American right wingers.

[DGuller]

I think a part of it is just bigotry of low expectations.

[Valmy]

I think a part of it is just bigotry of low expectations.

Another is that muslims are often political allies of leftwing parties.

[crazy canuck]

The Palestinians have plenty of freedom of action.  October 7th demonstrated that.

Freedom of action requires the use of deadly force?

[crazy canuck]

I can't find a post where I said breeding extremism so I really don't know what I could have meant if I said it.

At the bottom of the previous page, page 205 on default settings, I quote your post in its entirety.

[woops, 2 pages back now]

The Israeli government overnight magically having a sudden change of heart and declaring no more war, lets all have a proper piece now, wouldn't instantly cause Palestinians to flip position.
But steps in this direction will give the same on the other side.

Nye River was a step in the right direction.  That produced the second intifada.  Total withdrawal from Gaza was a step in the right direction.  That produced rocket attacks and October 7.  Your assertion is disproved.

Your analysis holds if you ignore all the other events which occurred during the same period of time.

Come to think of it, that is the only way for your analysis to hold.

[viper37]

If I give you money to kill someone and you kill someone, what am I doing?  Promoting alternative transportation?

Are you saying this is what happened with the Quatari money?  That Israel made a deal with Hamas that said we will allow this money to come into Gaza, but only if you kill some of our people?

I'm not much into conspiracy theory, you know.

Israel knew very well what was the Quatari money used for.  They knew perfectly well it wasn't used just for "reconstruction".  They intercepted the guy with the money, interrogated him, and then let him go back to his business and let more money flow in.

Cash money going in Hamas territory.  To rebuild stuff, apparently.   And no buildings getting off the ground.

You could think, like some, that Israeli intelligence services are very stupid people, totally blind, and had no idea what was going on, and were poor innocent victims of everything, totally blindsided by evil, very smart terrorist organizations and their smart financial Qatari advisors.

Or, you could read the myriad of articles I've already posted on the subject here, detailing what happened in great details, with all the analysis, and the political decisions that were made by Bibi: let the Hamas get stronger because a terrorist organization in Gaza was better and a free Palestine in the West Bank.

Let them get a bit stronger, launch a missile strike and some aerial bombardment, rinse and repeat.

The government did not expect an attack of such viciousness to happen despite all the signs pointing at it.  That's not a conspiracy theory, that's incompetence.  Criminal incompetence, if you ask me.  At the level, heads should roll at the top, and maybe not even figuratively.

Hamas was able to strike hard because the Israeli government did everything it could to strengthen Hamas and refused to listen to every warning it was given.

[Razgovory]

The Palestinians have plenty of freedom of action.  October 7th demonstrated that.

Freedom of action requires the use of deadly force?

no comprendo, senior

[Razgovory]

If I give you money to kill someone and you kill someone, what am I doing?  Promoting alternative transportation?

Are you saying this is what happened with the Quatari money?  That Israel made a deal with Hamas that said we will allow this money to come into Gaza, but only if you kill some of our people?

I'm not much into conspiracy theory, you know.

Israel knew very well what was the Quatari money used for.  They knew perfectly well it wasn't used just for "reconstruction".  They intercepted the guy with the money, interrogated him, and then let him go back to his business and let more money flow in.

Cash money going in Hamas territory.  To rebuild stuff, apparently.  And no buildings getting off the ground.

You could think, like some, that Israeli intelligence services are very stupid people, totally blind, and had no idea what was going on, and were poor innocent victims of everything, totally blindsided by evil, very smart terrorist organizations and their smart financial Qatari advisors.

Or, you could read the myriad of articles I've already posted on the subject here, detailing what happened in great details, with all the analysis, and the political decisions that were made by Bibi: let the Hamas get stronger because a terrorist organization in Gaza was better and a free Palestine in the West Bank.

Let them get a bit stronger, launch a missile strike and some aerial bombardment, rinse and repeat.

The government did not expect an attack of such viciousness to happen despite all the signs pointing at it.  That's not a conspiracy theory, that's incompetence.  Criminal incompetence, if you ask me.  At the level, heads should roll at the top, and maybe not even figuratively.

Hamas was able to strike hard because the Israeli government did everything it could to strengthen Hamas and refused to listen to every warning it was given.

You are absolutely right.  The Israelis should have kept their foot on Gaza's neck.  No money in. No work permits.  Nothing.

[Valmy]

Your analysis holds if you ignore all the other events which occurred during the same period of time.

Come to think of it, that is the only way for your analysis to hold.

Yeah I was going to say there are a few missing events in there 

[crazy canuck]

The Palestinians have plenty of freedom of action.  October 7th demonstrated that.

Freedom of action requires the use of deadly force?

no comprendo, senior

You used an armed force of terrorists to prove a claim that all Palestinians have freedom of action.

Do you not see how absurd that is?

[Razgovory]

I didn't say that it requires use of deadly force.  The Palestinians can act.  They have agency.  They are not just a passive group.

[grumbler]

Your analysis holds if you ignore all the other events which occurred during the same period of time.

Come to think of it, that is the only way for your analysis to hold.

Yeah I was going to say there are a few missing events in there 

Yi does seem to prefer simple cause-effect linkages that "prove" his point, even when the effect (Palestinian rockets into Israel, starting in 2001) precede their causes (Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, 2005).

[crazy canuck]

I didn't say that it requires use of deadly force.  The Palestinians can act.  They have agency.  They are not just a passive group.

Other than the use of deadly force by terrorists, can you give an example of where Palestinians have the sort of agency you are describing?