Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Valmy]

Yeah well...we'll see. I don't know if Hamas is that obedient to the UNSC. I don't think this vote changes anything.

I agree with Otto that's a much different signal than the previous proposal.  The previous one said if Hamas wants nice things done to them they have to do nice things to others. 

I of course disagree with him about the optimal response of private citizens.

Again will either side in this conflict abide by the signal? Besides, it seems to the statement by the Biden Administration that our position has not changed is a signal that we still regard the situation being that Hamas must turn over the hostages for the cease fire to go into effect.

[Admiral Yi]

Again will either side in this conflict abide by the signal? Besides, it seems to the statement by the Biden Administration that our position has not changed is a signal that we still regard the situation being that Hamas must turn over the hostages for the cease fire to go into effect.

Nice syntax brosef.

Israel is certainly taking the signal seriously.  They threw a temper tantrum.

Biden can try to spin it any way he wants but the signal has already been sent that the "international community" insists on a ceasefire and thinks it would be really nice if the hostages were handed over.

[The Minsky Moment]

I agree the resolution is substantively different. However, by its terms the demanded ceasefire is only in place until April 9.  It's hard to believe that the period between now and April 9 would have been the magic moment where the hostages would have been recused absent the ceasefire and I am extremely skeptical that the planned military operations have some essential strategic rationale that would be fatally compromised if they occurred in early April as opposed to late March.  The resolution could work in Israel's favor if they were to comply as if Hamas fails to comply, it will reduce pressure on Israel if it then resumes hostilities after Ramadan. Of course that assumes Israel respects it . . .

[Admiral Yi]

That's not so bad.

There you go Otto.  Now you can vote for Biden again.

[Tamas]

Otto, you sound exactly like the hyperbolic pan-Muslims and leftists in the UK and the US now except for the other side.

If you indeed are going to vote for Trump under any ridiculous excuse then I have lost all respect for you. Enjoy your orange wrecking ball in office, I am sure you will manage to create a narrative in your head where you won't be looking like a massive tool for voting for him.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Here is what is not being understood. This isn't solely about Israel/Hamas, this is about the West.

In the United States, we have consistently had both parties support Israel, and largely ignore Palestinian activists who attempt to influence our government. Now we have at least two full throated antisemitic, pro-terrorist Palestinians in our Congress.

You can look across the Atlantic to see a much more troubling scenario--look to Britain. Tons of their MPs are pro-Hamas Muslims. Both of their parties are literally scared of pro-Palestinians, to the point a former Tory PM is regularly posting pro-Palestinian rhetoric on social media (David Cameron.)

Almost overnight the UK has become a place where Jews don't feel safe. Where angry Muslim mobs can chant blood libels and paeans to the extermination of Israel on the street with no condemnation from anyone in power in Britain. The BBC has largely served as a clearinghouse for anti-Israeli fake news propaganda since the start of the war (remember the fake news about Israel bombing that hospital early on.)

The problem with Biden kowtowing to the hateful antisemitic Muslim faction is it now says this is where the Democratic party draws its line. It is scared enough of the political consequences of opposing an angry Muslim mob, that it is going to let them now set our national policy and priorities.

What must occur is Biden must pay a price. He and the party leadership that will come after them must be shown, decisively, that throwing your lot in with antisemitic, pro-Hamas Muslims is an electoral abyss, from which you will not recover. When Trump is elected he needs to use all the powers of his office, and take actions legal or illegal, to suppress this growing Muslim extremist faction in the country.

Safely suppressed we can go back to our regular two party programming, but as of yesterday the Democrats are the party of Hamas and Muslim extremism, and only sufficient electoral punishment can hope to steer them back to the right path, lest America in 10 years looks like Britain today, where both parties are cowed in fear of angry Muslim mobs.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Biden has actively doomed the hostages that were possibly going to be released as a result of the Qatar negotiations (which have now largely ended due to Biden's decision):

Israel has dismissed Hamas demands for a full military withdrawal and a permanent ceasefire, while the terror group has conditioned any further hostage releases on an Israeli commitment to end the war. Israel has insisted that its military campaign to destroy Hamas's military and governance capabilities will resume once any hostage-truce deal is implemented.

Foreign Minister Israel Katz said in a radio interview Tuesday morning that the US decision to withhold a veto on the Security Council resolution would hurt Israel in talks to free its hostages held by terrorists in the enclave.

Katz drew a direct line between Hamas's rejection of Israeli terms for a truce and hostage deal in exchange for prisoners and the US decision to allow the measure to pass, which he called "a moral and ethical mistake."

"Hamas is building on the fact that... there will be a ceasefire without it needing to pay a thing," he said.

Katz said Israel will now need to up the military pressure to prove its commitment to releasing the hostages and taking down Hamas.

"In our view, there was a message, a no-good message, to anyone on Hamas's side that the US does not support Israel as much, and so we need to prove, militarily, that we will stand by our goals," he said

Also as I predicted a couple weeks ago, the predictable response to the left's desire for Biden to abandon Israel will be Israel becoming more aggressive militarily. It now knows it has no friends, so it needs to focus on getting its grim work done ASAP as time is now of the essence.

Lots of people are going to die because Joe Biden got scared of an angry Muslim mob.

[Tamas]

Which of your points is going to be improved by Trump becoming President?

[OttoVonBismarck]

Which of your points is going to be improved by Trump becoming President?

Is this even a serious question? Trump and the GOP have been consistently strong in pushing back against Muslim extremism in America. There is zero chance a Trump Administration would have abandoned Israel in the UN.


The GOP has already started to message against Biden on this—they have made it clear where they stand, and it is not with Muslim hatemongering terrorists like Rashida Tlaib.

[Josquius]

Almost overnight the UK has become a place where Jews don't feel safe. Where angry Muslim mobs can chant blood libels and paeans to the extermination of Israel on the street with no condemnation from anyone in power in Britain. The BBC has largely served as a clearinghouse for anti-Israeli fake news propaganda since the start of the war (remember the fake news about Israel bombing that hospital early on.)

I don't think you've looked at what is happening in the UK at all.
The truth is quite the opposite.
Where peaceful protestors call for an end to violence in the middle east they get widely condemned and slammed as being murderous anti-semites.

The problem with Biden kowtowing to the hateful antisemitic Muslim faction is it now says this is where the Democratic party draws its line. It is scared enough of the political consequences of opposing an angry Muslim mob, that it is going to let them now set our national policy and priorities.

Hilarious that this is what you think he's doing. You seriously think they're happy with the US merely abstaining on a call for a cease fire with all these conditions?
Its more Biden is falling in line with the entire world and recognising Israel has gone way over the top. Even from an Israeli-supporter side you can see how its clear Israel needs to chill out and come up with an actual plan beyond "Kill Hamas".

Also as I predicted a couple weeks ago, the predictable response to the left's desire for Biden to abandon Israel will be Israel becoming more aggressive militarily. It now knows it has no friends, so it needs to focus on getting its grim work done ASAP as time is now of the essence.

Lots of people are going to die because Joe Biden got scared of an angry Muslim mob.

Interesting for such a vehemently pro-Israel person you have so little faith in the Israeli people's humanity. That's more what one would expect from a committed pro-Palestine person.




Incidentally, Israel's reaction to the US abstention was interesting in that it really highlighted the way the term anti-semite is ridiculously overused to mean "Anyone who doesn't completely support whatever the Israeli government is doing"

[OttoVonBismarck]

I don't care about the opinions of Brits who support Hamas, fwiw.

[Tamas]

Almost overnight the UK has become a place where Jews don't feel safe. Where angry Muslim mobs can chant blood libels and paeans to the extermination of Israel on the street with no condemnation from anyone in power in Britain. The BBC has largely served as a clearinghouse for anti-Israeli fake news propaganda since the start of the war (remember the fake news about Israel bombing that hospital early on.)

I don't think you've looked at what is happening in the UK at all.
The truth is quite the opposite.
Where peaceful protestors call for an end to violence in the middle east they get widely condemned and slammed as being murderous anti-semites.

[The Minsky Moment]

Biden has actively doomed the hostages that were possibly going to be released as a result of the Qatar negotiations (which have now largely ended due to Biden's decision):

We are supposed to take this on the word of . . . Israel Katz?

Katz has had five and a half months to pursue negotiations with Hamas over release of the hostages; for five and half months, Hamas has steadfastly refused to release all the hostages unless hostilities cease.  But Katz would have us believe that Hamas was on the verge of suddenly caving and changing their position over the next two weeks?  Why? Because Israel was threatening to turn the rubble of Gaza into slightly worse rubble?  This isn't even magical thinking, it's 100% bullshit.

I have no illusions about the resolution, which really isn't about Palestine at all; it was a power play from Russia and China to try to embarrass the United States.  But the substance of the resolution is not really bad for Israel.  In fact, for a competent Israeli government it would present an opportunity to put Hamas on the spot and counteract Israel's pummeling in the international information and propaganda war.

[Josquius]

I don't care about the opinions of Brits who support Hamas, fwiw.

OK?
I don't either?
Or are you so far gone you're implying I support Hamas?

[OttoVonBismarck]

Biden has actively doomed the hostages that were possibly going to be released as a result of the Qatar negotiations (which have now largely ended due to Biden's decision):

We are supposed to take this on the word of . . . Israel Katz?

Katz has had five and a half months to pursue negotiations with Hamas over release of the hostages; for five and half months, Hamas has steadfastly refused to release all the hostages unless hostilities cease.  But Katz would have us believe that Hamas was on the verge of suddenly caving and changing their position over the next two weeks?  Why? Because Israel was threatening to turn the rubble of Gaza into slightly worse rubble?  This isn't even magical thinking, it's 100% bullshit.

I have no illusions about the resolution, which really isn't about Palestine at all; it was a power play from Russia and China to try to embarrass the United States.  But the substance of the resolution is not really bad for Israel.  In fact, for a competent Israeli government it would present an opportunity to put Hamas on the spot and counteract Israel's pummeling in the international information and propaganda war.

The idea that you think Israel should have to let Hamas survive to get its people back--which is Hamas's red line for negotiating, is ludicrous and disgusting. They need to just let the Muslims overrun the country today and pogrom all the Jews if that is the line Israel is going to draw. That just says "hurt us more, it gets the results you want." Hamas wants bombs to stop dropping, it should return the hostages and agree to let its leadership go into exile.