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Ukraine's European Revolution?

Started by Sheilbh, December 03, 2013, 07:39:37 AM

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Queequeg

Quote from: Tamas on May 06, 2014, 10:39:31 AM
Psellus, nobody else here is interested in Putin-apologetism.
:wacko:
Lieven is well respected and that article isn't from Pravda. 
Quote from: PDH on April 25, 2009, 05:58:55 PM
"Dysthymia?  Did they get some student from the University of Chicago with a hard-on for ancient Bactrian cities to name this?  I feel cheated."

Tamas

#4666
Quote from: Queequeg on May 06, 2014, 10:46:48 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 06, 2014, 10:39:31 AM
Psellus, nobody else here is interested in Putin-apologetism.
:wacko:
Lieven is well respected and that article isn't from Pravda.

"a fringe group afraid of their life made a dick move, and the West sucks because do not consider such moves as sacred and the new directives for international diplomacy" It is making a case for being lenient on an aggressive empire destabilising and eating a neighbour destabilising the entire world in the process. It is appeasement at its worst.

Grinning_Colossus

I'm not seeing the Putinism in that op ed. The eastern Russophones don't like the government in Kiev, but saying that they must therefore want to be ruled by Moscow is playing into the Russian narrative. Giving them another option would weaken their alliance with Moscow.
Quis futuit ipsos fututores?

Tamas

Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on May 06, 2014, 10:57:27 AM
I'm not seeing the Putinism in that op ed. The eastern Russophones don't like the government in Kiev, but saying that they must therefore want to be ruled by Moscow is playing into the Russian narrative. Giving them another option would weaken their alliance with Moscow.

I am not seeing "we want to stay Ukraine but we do not like this government" protests. ANYWHERE. What I see is masked guys in unmarked military uniforms joined by local thugs taking over local government buildings in different cities in coordinated assaults then shooting down helicopters with anti-aircraft weaponry.

That is NOT about inner politics dissent over a shaky and fucked up government (which they clearly have).

Valmy

Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on May 06, 2014, 10:57:27 AM
I'm not seeing the Putinism in that op ed. The eastern Russophones don't like the government in Kiev, but saying that they must therefore want to be ruled by Moscow is playing into the Russian narrative. Giving them another option would weaken their alliance with Moscow.

Well according to that article we already agreed to that, in principle anyway, on April 17th.  I am not seeing this alternative vision is reducing tensions any.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Grinning_Colossus

#4670
Quote from: Tamas on May 06, 2014, 11:05:01 AM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on May 06, 2014, 10:57:27 AM
I'm not seeing the Putinism in that op ed. The eastern Russophones don't like the government in Kiev, but saying that they must therefore want to be ruled by Moscow is playing into the Russian narrative. Giving them another option would weaken their alliance with Moscow.

I am not seeing "we want to stay Ukraine but we do not like this government" protests. ANYWHERE. What I see is masked guys in unmarked military uniforms joined by local thugs taking over local government buildings in different cities in coordinated assaults then shooting down helicopters with anti-aircraft weaponry.

That is NOT about inner politics dissent over a shaky and fucked up government (which they clearly have).

Sure, the Russians are sending in infiltrators who are claiming to speak for the population. The real Crimean referendum result suggests that the east Ukrainians aren't exactly sold on the idea of becoming part of Russia, but that the Russian forces are allowed to operate so freely also suggests that the population condones their actions to some degree. Offering the Donbas autonomy as an alternative to being ruled by a nationalist government or joining Russia would weaken the Russian position there.

Quote from: Valmy on May 06, 2014, 11:06:04 AM
Well according to that article we already agreed to that, in principle anyway, on April 17th.  I am not seeing this alternative vision is reducing tensions any.

Then we need to browbeat Kiev into also explicitly agreeing to it.
Quis futuit ipsos fututores?

Tamas

Quote
Sure, the Russians are sending in infiltrators who are claiming to speak for the population. The real Crimean referendum result suggests that the east Ukrainians aren't exactly sold on the idea of becoming part of Russia, but that the Russian forces are allowed to operate so freely also suggests that the population condones their actions to some degree. Offering the Donbas autonomy as an alternative to being ruled by a nationalist government or joining Russia would weaken the Russian position there.

That offer has already been made, and in clear reply the building-occupations started.

Then the Ukrainian government proposed a referendum about the fate of the region together with the election. And things escalated again.

There is NOTHING domestic about this, apart from the fact that unarmed civilians are not feeling like standing up against Russian special forces and their hired armed thugs.

Syt

Quote from: Valmy on May 06, 2014, 10:41:40 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 06, 2014, 10:39:31 AM
Psellus, nobody else here is interested in Putin-apologetism.

What I like about that article is that we are contemptible, immoral, irresponsible, and equivalent to six year olds overreaching in our attempt to turn Ukraine into a puppet state 100% aligned to the west and in our grasp of evil....yet at the same time have already agreed to the solution he says will save the day for weeks?

You may want to read North Korea's Human Rights report on the U.S. next, which calls the living situation of people in America "A Living Hell". :)
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops.
—Stephen Jay Gould

Proud owner of 42 Zoupa Points.

Valmy

Quote from: Syt on May 06, 2014, 11:32:17 AM
You may want to read North Korea's Human Rights report on the U.S. next, which calls the living situation of people in America "A Living Hell". :)

Only true for Cubs fans.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

grumbler

Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on May 06, 2014, 11:27:05 AM
Then we need to browbeat Kiev into also explicitly agreeing to it.

It isn't Kiev that is occupying government buildings while wearing masks.  The people that need to be browbeaten are those guys.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Duque de Bragança


Crazy_Ivan80

Quote from: Maladict on May 06, 2014, 06:23:27 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 05, 2014, 12:15:08 PM
The Netherlands are just a breakaway region of Germany.

The Netherlands is singular, not plural. :contract:



it's plural as it refers to the many small states that formed the country in the 16th century (and to the Southern and Northern Netherlands that formed the state after it was reformed in 1814/15). English doesn't have a singular form for the place.

derspiess

Wonder why we don't call Flanders "the Flanders".
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

Queequeg

I think keeping the article for places is actually an older English thing.  Germans do it IIRC.  It is, like a lot of vestigial features of a language, kept unevenly. 
Quote from: PDH on April 25, 2009, 05:58:55 PM
"Dysthymia?  Did they get some student from the University of Chicago with a hard-on for ancient Bactrian cities to name this?  I feel cheated."

garbon

Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on May 06, 2014, 01:25:29 PM
Quote from: Maladict on May 06, 2014, 06:23:27 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 05, 2014, 12:15:08 PM
The Netherlands are just a breakaway region of Germany.

The Netherlands is singular, not plural. :contract:



it's plural as it refers to the many small states that formed the country in the 16th century (and to the Southern and Northern Netherlands that formed the state after it was reformed in 1814/15). English doesn't have a singular form for the place.

Pretty sure it should be "The Netherlands is" and not "The Netherlands are" in English.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.