Ukraine's European Revolution?

[The Brain]

I'm guessing that at this point Putin might be a bit frustrated that despite all provocations the Ukrainians have so far refused to fire the first shot. It's a bit of a surreal situation at the moment, one army invading, the other refusing to fight.

Denmark isn't surreal.

[Syt]

http://www.thelocal.de/20140302/germanys-steinmeier-warns-of-new-division-of-europe-over-ukraine-russia-tension-in-crimea

Germany warns of 'new division of Europe'

Germany's foreign minister warned Russia on Sunday against military intervention in Ukraine, saying that "a new division of Europe can still be prevented".

Frank-Walter Steinmeier said: "We are on a very dangerous path of rising tension. A reversal is still possible. A new division of Europe can still be prevented."

"It is imperative that all those responsible desist from further steps that can only be understood as a provocation," he added.
   
"Anything else would lead to an escalation with uncertain, possibly dramatic consequences and undo many years of constructive cooperation for a more secure Europe."
   
Steinmeier was speaking after Russia's parliament approved President Vladimir Putin's request for sending troops into neighbouring Ukraine's Crimea region, triggering an international outcry.
   
"Russia has no right to use its military beyond the rules of the lease on the Russian Black Sea Fleet on Ukrainian territory," Steinmeier said in a statement, referring to the Russian naval base on the Crimea peninsula.
   
"We urgently call on Russia to refrain from any infringement of the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine."
   
Under the threat of a Russian intervention, the Western-backed interim government in Kiev has put the military on full combat alert.
   
Steinmeier added: "We are committed to ensuring that the new political leadership in Kiev protects the rights and interests of all Ukrainians.
   
"This includes in particular an unequivocal protection of the rights of minorities, including the use of languages."

Steinmeier also suggested sending an OSCE fact finding group to Eastern Ukraine and creating a contact group for Russian/Ukrainian relations. He's not in favor of expelling Russia from the G8, citing that it's one of the few opportunities of having straight talk with Russia.

[The Brain]

http://www.thelocal.de/20140302/germanys-steinmeier-warns-of-new-division-of-europe-over-ukraine-russia-tension-in-crimea

Germany warns of 'new division of Europe'

Germany's foreign minister warned Russia on Sunday against military intervention in Ukraine, saying that "a new division of Europe can still be prevented".

Frank-Walter Steinmeier said: "We are on a very dangerous path of rising tension. A reversal is still possible. A new division of Europe can still be prevented."

Only a non-aggression pact can save Germany and Russia now.

[Admiral Yi]

The Invasion Of Crimea Is Russia's Worst Foreign Policy Blunder In A Generation

I agree.

[Syt]

[OttoVonBismarck]

The U.S. needs to leave the G8; if the Euros want to have a G6 + Russia to prattle on about nonsense let them, I see no reason or interest to America doing anything to help Russia's standing internationally or to give Putin internal legitimacy by getting to show off by hosting the American President.

Something that does make me scratch my head as I've thought about it though, is Crimea is very pro-Russian. Most likely in the months to follow, if left alone, the interim government would have lost control of Crimea anyway. Through democratic means it would have demanded, and probably gotten, a vote on even more autonomy or even separation from Ukraine. At which point independent Crimea would either join Russia or perhaps enter into some special protectorate agreement or whatever. But realistically I don't see a scenario where Ukraine could have kept Crimea--so why is Putin moving troops in? Is it really just to slap the West in the face? To do something aggressive and outlandish even though he probably could and would have gotten Crimea by default anyway? If that's the case it makes it even more humiliating we refuse to call him on it, because it means the entire activity was basically done to test and prove Western weakness.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I genuinely distrust Germany in terms of NATO. I think if Russia was moving into Latvia or Lithuania or Estonia it'd be true Cuban Missile Crisis shit between the US, UK, and much of the rest of NATO and Russia. Meaning "if you really want to go to a nuclear war, we will be, but you're not staying in those countries without an outright war with NATO even if that means a nuclear war", just like the Cold War. I could see Germany arguing we need to just let the Baltic Republics fall.

[The Brain]

I genuinely distrust Germany in terms of NATO. I think if Russia was moving into Latvia or Lithuania or Estonia it'd be true Cuban Missile Crisis shit between the US, UK, and much of the rest of NATO and Russia. Meaning "if you really want to go to a nuclear war, we will be, but you're not staying in those countries without an outright war with NATO even if that means a nuclear war", just like the Cold War. I could see Germany arguing we need to just let the Baltic Republics fall.

With a rider that the Baltic states must use coal and solar.

[CountDeMoney]

***Simpsons***

I LOL'd.

[Queequeg]

[CountDeMoney]

I think if Russia was moving into Latvia or Lithuania or Estonia it'd be true Cuban Missile Crisis shit between the US, UK, and much of the rest of NATO and Russia.

I don't think that's much of a stretch, what with them actually being in NATO and all.

[LaCroix]

Based on the fact your posts are at this point boring and I suspect trollish, and you already misrepresented my prior posts (and from skimming this one you've continued that practice) I'm not seeing much of a reason to respond or even read through your trash, ciao cocksucker. Life is too short to get into grumbler style arguments where someone tries to alter your past posts into arguments you yourself never made. Maybe you're just stupid and don't understand what I actually posted in which case maybe you should go get a job at Taco Bell instead of wasting your time here.

i haven't altered my points at all. all i've seen coming from you is insults, not actual arguments. i made a few replies to your posts earlier in the thread, but you ignored them.. then out of no where just came a full out attack where you accused me of a lot of things. it was seriously bizarre, and i'm still not sure where the hostility stemmed from. it was a real chris christie moment. but if you're backing out of the discussion, that's fine. and i might have to consider taco bell once i've graduated from law school

[Syt]

Just throwing this out there: it would be a slap in the face if Putin waited with the actual attack order until the Oscar ceremonies start, contrasting the "decadent effeminate West" vs. the "virtuous masculine East".

[OttoVonBismarck]

I think if Russia was moving into Latvia or Lithuania or Estonia it'd be true Cuban Missile Crisis shit between the US, UK, and much of the rest of NATO and Russia.

I don't think that's much of a stretch, what with them actually being in NATO and all.

That's what I'm saying Padre, that the Germans scare me enough that I think they'd be quibbling about what our response should be even if a NATO ally was invaded.

Although actually in Cold War era I don't think the scenario would even get to that point, I think Cold War doctrine would have required missiles in the air the moment the Rus hordes crossed the  border of a NATO state, not after a period of deliberation.

[OttoVonBismarck]

i haven't altered my points at all. all i've seen coming from you is insults, not actual arguments. i made a few replies to your posts earlier in the thread, but you ignored them.. then out of no where just came a full out attack where you accused me of a lot of things. it was seriously bizarre, and i'm still not sure where the hostility stemmed from. it was a real chris christie moment. but if you're backing out of the discussion, that's fine. and i might have to consider taco bell once i've graduated from law school

For one you need to learn to capitalize words appropriately. For two, you can expect more hostility and insults if you keep on this way.