The Off Topic Topic

[PJL]

So the terrorists won in the end then.

[Sheilbh]

Hard disagree from me.

Personally I think it's a significant pivot point, in that it kicked off the transition period between the Post-WWII world order, and the destruction of that world order (and the US domestic order) we're witnessing right now.

My view would be more along the lines of what Jos says. And perhaps there's perception at play here. I would argue the post-9/11 years were the (arguably hubristic) peak of that world order. The failure of that period contributed to the breakdown and transition. But I suppose you could also see the overreach as part of the transition.

Why do you say that it was "relatively inconsequential"

It may be about how we understood it at the time - but I thought it would be pre-9/11 and post-9/11. And I remember commentary of that type or the comparisons with Pearl Harbour or the fall of the Wall. I don't think that is what happened. All periodisation is bunk but you don't see much - since the immediate aftermath (and outside sort of security state commentary) - talk about 1989-2001 as a period v 1989-2008. It wasn't as transformative or as much as a pivot point as it felt - and perhaps felt it should be living at that time.

As Jos says I think the global financial crisis is far more the break point or pivot point where there's a clear before and after. And to Jacob's point, breakdown.

[crazy canuck]

So the terrorists won in the end then.

People were making that observation long before now.

[garbon]

So the terrorists won in the end then.

People were making that observation long before now.

Yeah definitely not a new observation.

[garbon]

It may be about how we understood it at the time - but I thought it would be pre-9/11 and post-9/11. And I remember commentary of that type or the comparisons with Pearl Harbour or the fall of the Wall. I don't think that is what happened. All periodisation is bunk but you don't see much - since the immediate aftermath (and outside sort of security state commentary) - talk about 1989-2001 as a period v 1989-2008. It wasn't as transformative or as much as a pivot point as it felt - and perhaps felt it should be living at that time.

As Jos says I think the global financial crisis is far more the break point or pivot point where there's a clear before and after. And to Jacob's point, breakdown.

Sorry to say but I greatly disagree with this. It has infected much/most of America's foreign policy since 9/11 happened and as America looms large globally, it has impacted a lot. It definitely was a watershed moment with aspects that continue to reverberate.

A very, very small example, the ESTA/ETA/ETIAS thing. The US led the pack in introducing the ESTA directly as a result of the 9/11 commission. There's no way that didn't eventually impact UK/EU decision to implement simiar.

[Norgy]

11th of September 2001 changed Europe too.

We have also traded freedom for security. And will probably continue to do so as Putin's war machine grinds on.

However, I think those who felt the most significant impact were the Moslem immigrants in Europe.

I remember exactly where I was when the tower fell.
A pity I could not see where it would lead us. But, we have the magnanimous Peter Thiel's Palantir now. So, I suppose I can relax. 

[Jacob]

I would argue the post-9/11 years were the (arguably hubristic) peak of that world order. The failure of that period contributed to the breakdown and transition. But I suppose you could also see the overreach as part of the transition.

Yeah I think that's it. 9/11 triggered a strong and failing reaction that created the world we live in now.

[garbon]

However, I think those who felt the most significant impact were the Moslem immigrants in Europe.

My sikh friend's family had their retail store vandalized.

[Norgy]

However, I think those who felt the most significant impact were the Moslem immigrants in Europe.

My sikh friend's family had their retail store vandalized.

That, unfortunately, happened here too. And the whole "displacement theory" took more of a hold.

I haven't exactly followed Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer closely the past decade, but they certainly contributed to a siege mentality among the far right in Europe too.

[Josquius]

I don't think anyone would claim 2001 was irrelevant.
Just that it wasn't the huge bookmark in time that some would present it as. Its secondary to other major events.
A sort of mid-season cliffhanger between the end of the eastern block and the financial crisis.

[Jacob]

I don't think anyone would claim 2001 was irrelevant.
Just that it wasn't the huge bookmark in time that some would present it as. Its secondary to other major events.
A sort of mid-season cliffhanger between the end of the eastern block and the financial crisis.

I disagree it being secondary, but it's a matter of perspective.

[Jacob]

Maybe what we're seeing (sample size of 2) is that 9/11 wasn't seen as particularly pivotal in the UK? Would other British languishites care to opine? How significant are the 9/11 attacks seen to be in the UK?

[Tonitrus]

Could it be said that 9/11 led to Tony Blair's (and thus, "New Labour") reputation/legacy going from hero to zero?

[DGuller]

I'm more than a little surprised that some people don't see 9/11 as a very major event.  It really changed the trajectory of US as a country, and mostly for the worse.

[Baron von Schtinkenbutt]

Maybe what we're seeing (sample size of 2) is that 9/11 wasn't seen as particularly pivotal in the UK? Would other British languishites care to opine? How significant are the 9/11 attacks seen to be in the UK?

Is part of it that the security state, liberty-for-security trade didn't hit the UK as hard because they had already been going down this road for decades already due to the Troubles?  9/11 was only 8 years after the Good Friday Accords, so there wasn't much of a gap between periods of terrorist threat in which the UK could ratchet back (assuming it wanted to).  Further expansion of the security state as a result of 9/11 could just have been seen as more of the same from the Troubles as well.