Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Razgovory]

I believe the HVC's and Zoupa's statements about race reveal the primary motivating factor in Western antizionism.  While the Isrealis and Palestinian do not differ much in appearance, the conflict is typically understood in left-wing circles as a racial conflict.  The language that antizionists use is racially charged, accusations of apartheid and "Zionism is racism".  American antizionists frequently claim that the Israelis operate in the US teaching police better ways to oppress POC.  The entire Zionist enterprise is depicted, from it's inception, as way to harm brown people for no other reason than sadistic racist hatred.

Because this is seen as a race war between white and brown people, Western leftists certainly do not want to be seen on side of the white people.  Anyone not on the side of brown people are by definition a racist.  That the Israelis are Jewish, another marginalized identity, is a source of constant consternation. White leftists have a very difficult time seeing someone who is nonwhite as a racist. That's why you often seen bizarre claims like "Palestinians can't be antisemites because they are themselves semites".

HVC conflated Muslims and brown people, because it is seen by people on the Left as a brown people's religion.  That's why there is reluctance to criticize Islamists, even by vocal atheists today.  It would be seen as racist.  Christianity is seen as a white person's religion, which probably explains the muted response to Armenian ethnic cleansing.  A conflict where between Azerbaijani Muslims and Armenian Christians is another conflict between brown and white people.  Or at least white-adjacent.

This desire to be seen as allies of Brown people has limits.  Just as white liberals who cheered integration in the South during the 60's fled out into the suburbs when their communities were integrated, White leftists are only too happy to overlook war crimes against brown people when said brown people set off bombs in Europe.

The concern among White leftists about brown people dying in Palestine (and the indifference they have about similar brown people dying in Iraq, Yemen, and Syria) has more to do with White leftists uneasiness with their own identities than it does with Human rights  or the laws of war in Palestine.  If the racial dynamics were reversed, like in my imaginary scenario, starvation, civilian casualties and ethnic cleansing would be acceptable measures.

[Razgovory]

What protections did the combatants have?

Lawful combatants have the right to be treated as a POW if captured (rather than as a criminal) and protection from further violence when hors de combat. POW status then confers further protections.

This is all information easily found on the web.

Okay, I think I understand now.  You are saying that Hamas members are no longer entitled to protection from further violence when taken prisoner. 

[Razgovory]

My bad, you said they'd kill you first then drag you onto the streets. I had the order of events reversed.

Given your reluctance (inability?) to differentiate between Muslim civilians and Muslims fanatics or militants one can safely conclude you don't see a difference. To you all Muslims are fanatics. Your indifference to Muslim civilian deaths bolsters this view.

I've answered your question, so would you be so kind as to do the same for me? What does my statement reveal in your eyes? Against my better judgement I'm actually curious.

I have never said that all Muslims are fanatics, nor have I ever insinuated it.  The funny thing is that for years I was the one considered too sympathetic to Muslims.  I was the defender of the faith, remember?  I was the one who objected when so many on Languish laughed when a Turkish ferry sunk and tuna left the board.  I was the one who was horrified when Languish cheered the slaughter of civilians when Morsi was overthrown in Egypt.  I was the one who said we should give Erdogan a chance.

[HVC]

You're the one that brought race into this. Numerous times. As far as race goes the only part I think it plays in this discussion is that i believe you are racist, though loath to admit it. It's  part of your weird plight of the white crusade. I personally don't care what race either side is. I've criticized hamas, the Brown side in your view,  for their actions, and will continue to do so.  In so far as this discussion goes I care that Israel is killing civilians, and even then I only care to the level I do because you so vehemently defend their right to kill said civilians.


*edit* made some changes for clarification.

[Zoupa]

Raz is working extremely hard to inject race and "leftists" into a discussion about civilians being killed and starved.

That drivel he posted was entertaining though, race war and white leftists etc. It's like a castle in the sky story he made up.

[Razgovory]

You're the one that brought race into this. Numerous times. It's  part of your weird plight of the white crusade. I don't care what race either side is. I've criticized hamas for their actions, and continue to do so. In so far as this discussion goes I care that Israel is killing civilians, and even then I only care to the level I do because you so vehemently defend their right to kill said civilians.

I have brought up race because it seems to constantly come up in antizionist discourse.  I have struggled to understand why there a double standard exists for Israel and basically everywhere else.  Why would white leftists celebrate the mass murder of Jews?  That was the big question I had over Oct 7th.  The answer I came to was that was race, in no small part because antizionists told me it was.  First I thought it was because they were Jews which is sort of a racial category, but the antizionists are adamant.  They aren't antisemitic.  The killing of civilians doesn't seem to be the problem either.  Next door in Syria civilians are getting butchered constantly.  In the same neighborhood, 80,000 kids have starved to death during the Saudi Blockade.  So that does not appear to be variable that motivates people in the West.  It doesn't appear to be Western support, because, again, Saudi Arabia has western support.  Race appears to be the only variable that applies to Israel but not to it's neighbors.

[HVC]

I dont even consider myself leftist. Centralist would be my preferred self identification. As for being white, that really depends who you ask    

[Razgovory]

I dont even consider myself leftist. Centralist would be my preferred self identification. As for being white, that really depends who you ask  

Okay, why did White leftists celebrate Oct 7th?

[HVC]

I dont even consider myself leftist. Centralist would be my preferred self identification. As for being white, that really depends who you ask  

Okay, why did White leftists celebrate Oct 7th?

Did they? Did all white leftist everywhere celebrate oct 7th? Or did you just invent that in your mind so that you can put yourself on the side against this monolithic white left and feel justified in your views?  If more right whites (as in political view, not correct view ) celebrated oct 7th would you then have switched sides?

[HVC]

Also, why does your morality reside in opposition to the scary white left monolith? Can killing civilians be bad regardless of which side champions it?

[Zoupa]

Why only "white" leftists btw? And where are these leftists that celebrated Oct 7th?

[Razgovory]

I dont even consider myself leftist. Centralist would be my preferred self identification. As for being white, that really depends who you ask  

Okay, why did White leftists celebrate Oct 7th?

Did they? Did all white leftist everywhere celebrate oct 7th? Or did you just invent that in your mind so that you can put yourself on the side against this monolithic white left and feel justified in your views?  If more right whites (as in political view, not correct view ) celebrated oct 7th would you then have switched sides?

No, not all White leftists celebrated oct 7th.  But a bunch did and I thought they were supposed to be the good guys.  I felt betrayed.

[Razgovory]

Why only "white" leftists btw? And where are these leftists that celebrated Oct 7th?

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[HVC]

How many white leftists does it take to put up a projection? And what percentage of the whole group of white leftists does it make up? Whats the break even point where the number of bad white leftists makes the whole movement tainted? What about the white rightest who support Israel in the hope of Armageddon and the death of all jews? If that percentage is higher do you switch side to the evil white liberals?

[Zoupa]

I'm not sure what a projection on a building is sufficient, Raz. You have a poll of white leftists or something? Statement from prominent white leftists? Anything?